RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest Friday 30 May 2003 Volume 22 : Issue 75 FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS (comp.risks) ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator ***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc. ***** This issue is archived at http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/22.75.html The current issue can be found at http://www.csl.sri.com/users/risko/risks.txt Contents: Algeria earthquake cuts Internet connectivity of major Greek ISP (Diomidis Spinellis) Diving computer flaw allegedly covered up (Craig S. Bell) "Computer glitch" causes false dam failure warning (Rich Mintz) ISP resets password to an easily guessed one (Dawn Cohen) Ballot scanning problems in New York City (Doug Kellner) Sensitive data on Web sites reflects lack of security awareness (Rick Weiss) Re: OpenBSD ... protects against buffer-overflow (Paul Karger) Re: Modern Computers, Unsafe at any speed? (Bill Stewart) Re: BMW/MSFT failure reported (Geoff Kuenning) No call list preventing 911 notifications (Robert Franchi) University of Calgary going to teach virus writing (Klaus Brunnstein) REVIEW: "Hack Attacks Testing", John Chirillo (Rob Slade) Abridged info on RISKS (comp.risks) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:45:32 +0300 From: Diomidis Spinellis <ddsat_private> Subject: Algeria earthquake cuts Internet connectivity of major Greek ISP OTEnet, the Greek ISP associated with the incumbent telephone operator, appears to be cut off from the (non-Greek) Internet for almost two consecutive days, due to damage from the Algerian earthquake. According to a note on their home page (http://www.otenet.gr/ - May 23rd - in Greek), the May 21st Algerian earthquake damaged a number of international cables (Flag, SMW2, SMW3, Columbus2) that passed through the area, cutting-off OTEnet's international IP connectivity. Dial-up customers are advised to use their Web proxy server as a temporary measure. A different page <http://www.otenet.gr/company/whyus.htm> boasts that OTEnet's network is the largest and most important [sic] Greek network featuring 65 points of presence, a 155Mbps backbone, a 100Mbps peering connection, and 310Mbps international connections. Apparently physically redundant international connections or peering agreements that would cover such an emergency were not foreseen. A number of Greek companies serviced by the particular ISP appear also to be cut off. Other ISPs and the Greek academic network were not affected, probably because they depend on different cables. The risk? Although IP technology supports the rerouting of packets around failed links, short-sighted network deployment architectures and peering agreement practices often fail to exploit this capability. Diomidis Spinellis - http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 04:14:06 GMT From: "Craig S. Bell" <craigat_private> Subject: Diving computer flaw allegedly covered up I am not a diver, myself; however, I found this story somewhat alarming. This report discusses a lawsuit surrounding the alleged coverup of serious problems with a certain Aladin diving computer, beginning in 1995. The safety of Aladin diving computers was discussed in RISKS 7.60, several years before this particular product debuted. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/05/25/MN309974.DTL Summary: If you make several short dives in relatively quick succession, the Aladin Air X Nitrox may dangerously overestimate how much dive time you have remaining. The primary risk is conventional: Despite reports of serious injury, the Swiss company's two founders successfully covered up knowledge of this flaw for seven years. This subterfuge overcame the efforts of some within the company to recall the defective computer, or otherwise make the public aware of the problem. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:39:29 -0400 From: Rich Mintz <richmintzat_private> Subject: "Computer glitch" causes false dam failure warning A "computer glitch" at Santee Cooper, the quasi-public agency that operates dams and power generation facilities in the South Carolina lowcountry, resulted in the broadcast of a false public warning that the Santee Dam on Lake Marion had failed. Apparently, a flood watch went out electronically at 3:16 AM, and then the sirens and loudspeakers began broadcasting a verbal warning of dam failure throughout the area about 8:30 AM. A Santee Cooper spokesman said, "A computer program kicked in gear that wasn't supposed to kick in gear," he said. "We're trying to get our arms around what caused this so it doesn't happen again." Santee Cooper also noted that not all the sirens that should have gone off in such a scenario actually went off, which is a separate problem they are investigating. The Santee Dam, which is part of the Santee Cooper lake system comprising Lakes Marion and Moultrie, is just upriver from the city of St. Stephen, about 50 miles NW of Charleston, in a region supported by fishing and lake tourism but also increasingly suburbanized. U.S. 52 connects the area to Moncks Corner and Charleston. From the article: >The threat of a dam break is no laughing matter on the Santee. Engineers >estimate that the wave from a collapse would hit the U.S. Highway 52 >bridge in four hours. After eight hours, that bridge would be submerged by >a river level 25 feet above normal, and 14-foot floodwaters would have >reached St. Stephen. The flood would reach the sea within 48 hours. From the Charleston (South Carolina) Post & Courier: http://www.charleston.net/stories/052303/loc_23dam.shtml. Detailed lake maps: http://www.santeecooper.com/environment/recreation/lakemaps.html Santee Cooper press release: http://www.santeecooper.com/aboutus/newsroom/releases/news_2003_0522.html Thanks to Wes Singletary for the referral. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:14:58 -0400 From: "Dawn Cohen" <COHENDat_private> Subject: ISP resets password to an easily guessed one Here's one from the I-can't-believe-they-would-do-such-a-thing department. Our local broadband provider was RCN, but due to various mismanagement or economic issues, was essentially ousted by our community. The service was picked up by Patriot Media, which doesn't seem to be doing much better. We were notified around the same day as the switchover took place that e-mail accounts would be changing to the <old-user-name>@patmedia.net, though we would have a grace period of a couple of months to transition. My husband tried to log in to his e-mail this morning, and couldn't manage to get in. After I turned the switch on for him (:-) he still couldn't get on, and after a lengthy wait for access to a Patriot Media customer service person, he found out that his user name had been changed to his old user name with a "1" appended, and his password had been reset to "rcnrcn". Need I say more? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:49:42 -0400 From: Doug Kellner <dkellnerat_private> Subject: Ballot scanning problems in New York City The NYC Board of Elections' system for scanning absentee ballots miscounted at least 19 ballots in a recent closely contested special election for a city council seat apparently because the scanner improperly sensed the blank voting oval. Because the voters had properly marked another oval, the computer voided the ballots as overvotes. http://www.vote.nyc.ny.us/pdf/documents/boe/ ReportOnTheScanningOfPaperBallots.pdf Douglas A. Kellner, Commissioner, Board of Elections in the City of New York 200 Varick Street, New York, New York 10013 Tel. (212) 889-2121 [This is not the first time I have heard of a blank oval being detected as over threshold for a marked oval. Just one more risk! PGN] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Weiss <rickw4sat_private> Subject: Sensitive data on Web sites reflects lack of security awareness My health insurance contracts with PrecisionRX.com for lower- cost prescription drugs. I recently wanted to order refills, and found that they had changed their Web site, and that I needed to register to be able to order refills. The registration process was mostly just me authenticating myself. The next day I received 2 e-mail messages from PrecisionRX.com (sent 5 seconds apart). One said "your username is blah". The other: "your password is blah". Each said that they were sent separately for security purposes. So I logged in. The login process ONLY required the username and password --- no other authentication was required for that first login! And I wasn't forced to change my password. In fact, there was no ability to change my password. Once logged in, I (or anyone who intercepted the e-mail) could view my full name, address, birth-date, social security number, doctors' names, prescriptions etc. Not only are they putting my identity at risk of theft, but they are violating HIPAA too (by not taking reasonable steps to keep others from viewing my private information). After complaining alot, they put me in touch with their head of IT, David. David told me that their system (e-mailing both username & password without any protection, not requiring further authentication to login, not requiring immediate password change) was indeed secure, and accepted practice too! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:46:53 -0400 From: kargerat_private Subject: Re: OpenBSD ... protects against buffer-overflow (Cowan, RISKS-22.74) This is a long comment, but I think it is very important to correct some myths about segmentation hardware. I have removed some of Crispin Cowan's text to make this shorter, and I hope that in doing so, I didn't change the intent of his remarks. If I did, please accept my apology in advance! >>What is not so apparent is why technology that was developed and operating >>over 30 years ago is just being re-invented in software. >Because what was developed in operating systems over 30 years ago was use of >heavily segmented architectures. Over 20 years ago (the Intel 432) it was >discovered (the hard way) that such architectures run horribly slowly >compared to RISC architectures. Since the debacle of the 432, even CISC >processors such as the x86 have migrated towards RISC style instruction >processing. Crispin Cowan's remarks that the Intel 432 had horrible performance are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, the horrible performance had absolutely NOTHING to do with the segmentation architecture, and his conclusion to avoid segmentation is incorrect. The performance lessons of the Intel 432 are EXTREMELY important for anyone in the OS or security field to learn, both to see what was an utter failure on that machine as well as what was NOT an utter failure! The following two references cover these lessons extremely well. Please pardon the BibTeX syntax. @article{colwell:controversy, author = "Colwell, Robert P. and {Hitchcock III}, Charles Y. and Jensen, E. Douglas and Brinkley Sprunt, H.M. and Kollar, Charles P.", title = "Computers, Complexity, and Controversy", journal = "Computer", volume = 18, number = 9, month = sep, year = 1985, pages = "8--19"} @phdthesis{colwell:phd, author = "Colwell, Robert P.", title = "The Performance Effects of Functional Migration and Architectural Complexity in Object-Oriented Systems", type = "Ph.D. thesis", school = "Department of Computer Science, CMU-CS-85-159, Carnegie-Mellon University", address = "Pittsburgh, PA, USA", month = aug, year = 1985} It is indeed true that that x86 architecture was designed to be used with segmentation, and almost all operating systems that have been written for it do NOT use the segmentation. It is also true that on the x86 that execute protection without segmentation is a royal pain. But this does not mean that using execute protection hardware is bad or that segmentation is bad. It only means that the x86 is badly designed for operating systems that do not use segmentation. The GEMSOS operating system (the only system that I know of to use x86 segmentation) uses that kind of execute protection with very good performance! Operating systems that don't use segmentation need to have read, write, and execute permission bits on every page of memory. If you don't have that, you will have trouble! By the way - I think Crispin's work on solving buffer overflows on x86 to be very good. I am NOT criticizing that work at all - only the generalization that segmentation is bad in all cases. >>The Burroughs 6700 implemented a hardware solution to the problem by >>assigning 3 bits of very 51 bit memory location to the type of data >>contained. The Burroughs B6700 (still sold by Unisys as the A-series today) is a good example of how to use segmentation in an operating system and get very good performance as well as very good buffer overflow protection. Multics did exactly the same thing to great success. See my paper: Karger, P.A. and R.R. Schell. Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics Security Evaluation. in Proceedings of the 18th Annual Computer Security Applications Conference. 2002, Las Vegas, NV IEEE Computer Society. p. 119-126. URL: http://www.acsac.org/2002/papers/classic-multics.pdf >The 432 did something similar, and the performance penalty was >astronomical. Colwell's papers make very clear that the horrible performance penalties on the 432 did NOT come from segmentation. They came from several other bad ideas including allowing instructions to start on arbitrary bit boundaries making instruction decode extremely hard, using full cross-domain calls for EVERY subroutine call, and numerous other performance atrocities. In addition to the Burroughs 6700 and Multics, the IBM System 38, AS/400, and iSeries servers all use segmentation and capabilities to great success. For segmentation to be useful, you have to have LOTS of segments in the architecture and each segment must be large enough. The 80286 chip didn't have either enough segments or big enough segments, and that started the myth that segments were bad. The 80386 pretty much fixed those problems. Multics segments were only 1 megabyte in size, and that was known to be too small all the way back in 1970! My personal opinion is that for a segmented architecture to succeed, you would need at a minimum 64K of segments, with each segment allowed to grow to at least 4gigs. Of course bigger numbers would be preferable, and with 64-bit processors today, that is not a problem. The IBM AS/400 and iSeries have (I think - I might have this wrong) 128-bit addresses! So in conclusion -- segments are most definitely not evil! Only badly designed segments are evil! It is important to design operating systems that work the same way that the hardware designers intended. If you don't do that, and on the x86, almost no one has done that, then you will have problems. That is part of why we suffer from buffer overflows today. There are lots of other reasons as well, of course. The C programming language is certainly another very big culprit. Almost any other language is better than C when it comes to buffer overflows - even FORTRAN! One final comment - segmentation can give a lot of security benefits, but segmentation is not the one and only true way - just as I believe that segmentation is not inherently bad, it is also the case that you can get most of the same benefits with a non-segmented machine IF you have the right protection bits on every page. My point is that it is crucial to have a match between the CPU architecture and the OS architecture, and we don't have that on the x86 for almost all operating systems available today. Paul A. Karger, Ph.D., Cantab., IBM, T. J. Watson Research Center [A subsequent response from Crispin and Paul's response to that are not included herein, That discussion was very interesting to me personally (as an old Multician), but probably of less interest to RISKS readers generally. PGN] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:31:35 -0700 From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewartat_private> Subject: Re: Modern Computers, Unsafe at any speed? I was startled by "Len Spyker" <redmond2at_private>'s assertion in RISKS-22.74 that "all that software now wasting CPU time checking for overflows is no longer needed" because hardware can protect us against overflows. Hardware can't protect you against wrong answers, and while it can detect some kinds of overflows and halt a program rather than let it dangerously stomp on other space, that isn't always the right way to respond to a problem - you might want to do other things like giving the user or administrator an error message rather than stopping. Also, hardware protection against stack overflows is easier than protection against overflows of individual arrays that don't go outside the segment, and setting up protection for arrays, at least on most hardware, is a lot more work. Yes, this will generally stop many kinds of potential security attack. But back in the mid-70s, when I was learning to program well in college (as opposed to learning to program haphazardly in high school), one of the first and most critical lessons was to always check your program's input and *never* trust it. It might be bad input by accident, or malicious input on purpose, and the input data we had to run our class programs on was always malicious, particularly designed to catch off-by-one errors, which are a common problem with arrays. Empty-input errors are fun too, and are often caused by input data that's out of sync, or by input data that's the wrong type (e.g. letters when you need numbers.) Some computer languages will help a lot with bounds checking, while others, like C, will let you shoot yourself in the foot, though they make it hard to shoot somebody else in the foot. Cornell's PL/C compiler (for their dialect of PL/I) not only detected syntax errors, it tried to correct them. Sometimes it did it right, sometimes it did it wrong, but it at least let you try to run the program so you could find as many bugs per set of keypunch exercise as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: <geoffat_private> Subject: Re: BMW/MSFT failure reported (Opie, RISKS-22.73) Perhaps I'm clueless for only owning a cheap Toyota, but on my car, I'm not stuck depending on electronics (and their associated power) to lock and unlock the doors. The power locks are only an assist. No matter what a terrorist does, I can hand-operate the mechanical locks in either direction. The true RISK is falling so in love with computerization and power assists that one forgets simple, reliable design. Doors that open themselves? Unless you're severely disabled, give me a break. Geoff Kuenning geoffat_private http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~geoff/ [Przemek Klosowski recalled the old chestnut about the thief drop-kicking the collision/deceleration sensor, which deploys the airbags and opens the car doors. Just a reminder. PGN] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:21:33 -0400 From: "Franchi, Robert" <Robert.Franchiat_private> Subject: No call list preventing 911 notifications http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/149/northwest/Call_blocking_may_be_safety_ risk+.shtml <http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/149/northwest/Call_blocking_may_be_safety _risk+.shtml> People who are on the MASS "Do not Call" list were also not included on the 911-emergency notification list (for emergency evacuations etc.). Apparently, the company that provides the list to the Massachusetts 911 system, Reverse 911, uses commercially available lists that have already had "Do Not Call" list people removed. Bob Franchi, FB&RS-Tech FTPS Accounts - Merrimack (603) 791-5833 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:18:01 +0200 From: "Klaus Brunnstein" <brunnsteinat_private-hamburg.de> Subject: University of Calgary going to teach virus writing RF readers are well aware about many cases where malicious code (aka viruses, worms, trojans) has adversely influenced proper work in enterprises and organisations. It may therefore come as surprise that a renown Canadian university - University of Calgary - is going to teach how to write viruses: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/News/virus_course.html This Web page is a result of rather controversial disputes in several fora which lead the department to rephrase their earlier announcement which revealed the reason for the course in full naivety. I quote (without permission) from UoCs earlier Web site (after a paragraph quoting experts on damage of malware): "Dr. John Aycock, professor for this course, convinced the Department to support his idea for offering a course in this area. He says that in order to develop more secure software, and countermeasures for malicious software, you first need to know how malicious software works and the mindset of its creators. By looking through the eyes of the people who develop these viruses, our students will learn what their targets actually are and what needs to be protected. It's a case of being proactive rather than reactive. This attitude is similar to what medical researchers do to combat the latest biological viruses such as SARS. Before you can develop a cure, you have to understand what the virus is and how it spreads - why should combating computer viruses be any different?" As far as I understand biologists, they DO NOT generate new viruses but try to extract parts of existing virus code to develop counter-measures. In Informatics, the equivalent technique is called "Reverse Engineering". Indeed, you can analyse malicious code WITHOUT THINKING LIKE A VIRUS AUTHOR, as Dr. Aycock and his faculty seem to think. Of course, there have been biologists, chemists and physicists who developed - "proactively" - some new specimen of related kinds but their goal was NOT to protect humankind but to the contrary to develop new weapons. In the Information Society, malware are weapons against those institutions which depend upon proper work of IT. In order to defend against such weapons, one must NOT THINK as attacker but in terms of the attacked. In this sense, it is UNETHICAL (if not yet illegal in some parts of the world) to write viruses. Now, UoC includes discussions of ethics in their course. As if this makes the dubious goal more honorable: it is inherently "unethical" to write malicious code. The inclusion of some paragraphs of ethics in UoC course is no more that an alibi. After 15 years of teaching how to detect, cure and possibly prevent malicious code in my courses at Hamburg university since 1988), I have NEVER seen any need nor has any of my students wished to write harmful code. Instead, we teach Reverse Engineering (which is legal for purposes of defense in Germany). My hope is that University of Calgary experts instruct their students in methods how to detect, cure and prevent contemporary IT rather than wasting times in teaching methods how to potentially generate harm. Klaus Brunnstein (Faculty for Informatics, University of Hamburg) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:19:02 -0800 From: Rob Slade <rsladeat_private> Subject: REVIEW: "Hack Attacks Testing", John Chirillo BKHKATTS.RVW 20030330 "Hack Attacks Testing", John Chirillo, 2003, 0-471-22946-6, U$50.00/C$77.50/UK#34.95 %A John Chirillo %C 5353 Dundas Street West, 4th Floor, Etobicoke, ON M9B 6H8 %D 2003 %G 0-471-22946-6 %I John Wiley & Sons, Inc. %O U$50.00/C$77.50/UK#34.95 416-236-4433 fax: 416-236-4448 %O http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471229466/robsladesinterne http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471229466/robsladesinte-21 %O http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471229466/robsladesin03-20 %P 540 p. + CD-ROM %T "Hack Attacks Testing" The description in the introduction seems to indicate that this text might be similar to SATAN (Security Administrator's Tool for Analyzing Networks), in that it explains how to build a set of utilities in order to identify vulnerabilities. As such, there is the possibility that the work is open to a charge of being more useful to attackers than to defenders. Fortunately, the book does not provide a great deal of information that could be used to break into systems. Unfortunately, it doesn't help much with defence, either. Part one is supposed to describe how to build a multisystem "Tiger Box," similar to SATAN, and the overview outlines the components of a penetration test. Chapters one to four, however, simply narrate the installations for Microsoft Windows NT and 2000, Red Hat Linux, Solaris, and Mac OS X, using the installation programs provided. The material is heavy on screen shots, and light on explanations of what is going on and why. There is no provision for specific security testing requirements, or even multiboot systems. Part two lists penetration analysis tools for Microsoft Windows, and the introduction tabulates common vulnerability classes. Chapter five explains how to install the Cerberus Internet scanner, enumerates the possible reports, and gives one (eight page) sample report. Much the same is true for the Cybercop Scanner, Internet Scanner, Security Threat Avoidance Technology (STAT), and TigerSuite products in chapters six through nine. All of these systems do multiple probes and analysis. The description of UNIX and OS X tools, in part three, starts with a twenty page list of UNIX commands. UNIX utilities tend to be more single purpose: hping/2 is for IP spoofing and nmap is for port scanning, but Nessus, SAINT (Security Administrator's Integrated Network Tool), and SARA (Security Auditor Research Assistant) are collections. Part four is entitled "Vulnerability Assessment," but contains only chapter fifteen, which contains checklists for securing various systems, primarily relying on outside sources. Despite the introduction, this book does *not* describe how to set up a "Tiger Box." It lists a few vulnerability scanners and utilities. There is little in the way of help or explanations, and the material seems to be based primarily on product documentation and commonly available guides. The content actually by Chirillo often seems so oddly written that it is difficult to parse any meaning from the text. The book does provide you with a list of vulnerability scanners. But then, so would any decent Web search. copyright Robert M. Slade, 2003 BKHKATTS.RVW 20030330 rsladeat_private rsladeat_private sladeat_private p1at_private http://victoria.tc.ca/techrev or http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~rslade ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 2003 (LAST-MODIFIED) From: RISKS-requestat_private Subject: Abridged info on RISKS (comp.risks) The RISKS Forum is a MODERATED digest. Its Usenet equivalent is comp.risks. => SUBSCRIPTIONS: PLEASE read RISKS as a newsgroup (comp.risks or equivalent) if possible and convenient for you. Alternatively, via majordomo, send e-mail requests to <risks-requestat_private> with one-line body subscribe [OR unsubscribe] which requires your ANSWERing confirmation to majordomoat_private . If Majordomo balks when you send your accept, please forward to risks. [If E-mail address differs from FROM: subscribe "other-address <x@y>" ; this requires PGN's intervention -- but hinders spamming subscriptions, etc.] Lower-case only in address may get around a confirmation match glitch. INFO [for unabridged version of RISKS information] There seems to be an occasional glitch in the confirmation process, in which case send mail to RISKS with a suitable SUBJECT and we'll do it manually. .UK users should contact <Lindsay.Marshallat_private>. => SPAM challenge-responses will not be honored. Instead, use an alternative address from which you NEVER send mail! => The INFO file (submissions, default disclaimers, archive sites, copyright policy, PRIVACY digests, etc.) is also obtainable from http://www.CSL.sri.com/risksinfo.html ftp://www.CSL.sri.com/pub/risks.info The full info file will appear now and then in future issues. *** All contributors are assumed to have read the full info file for guidelines. *** => SUBMISSIONS: to risksat_private with meaningful SUBJECT: line. => ARCHIVES: http://www.sri.com/risks http://www.risks.org redirects you to the Lindsay Marhall's Newcastle archive. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/VL.IS.html [i.e., VoLume, ISsue]. Lindsay has also added to the Newcastle catless site a palmtop version of the most recent RISKS issue and a WAP version that works for many but not all telephones: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/w/r http://the.wiretapped.net/security/info/textfiles/risks-digest/ . http://www.planetmirror.com/pub/risks/ ftp://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/risks/ ==> PGN's comprehensive historical Illustrative Risks summary of one liners: http://www.csl.sri.com/illustrative.html for browsing, http://www.csl.sri.com/illustrative.pdf or .ps for printing ------------------------------ End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 22.75 ************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri May 30 2003 - 16:01:36 PDT