CRIME List Issues

From: Geo (geoneve@private)
Date: Thu Dec 13 2001 - 21:18:53 PST

  • Next message: Raan Young: "Re: CRIME List Issues"

    >From George and Zot:
    To answer a few of the questions popping up on the list:
    This is long.  Please cut and trim if you reply.
    [We focus on Toby, Will, Jimmy, and Crispin in this note since they are
    hardened targets]
    1)  Why have we not responded?
    A few reasons.
      Most of the issues appearing on the list have recurred over the last 5
    years and they tend to go away.
      We are busy.  Really, some of these issues are trivial.
      Most social organizations have antibodies that bring the organization
    back in equilibrium.  Case in point: recently, Crispin, Toby, Wil, and
    Jimmy stopped ranting in a thread, and instead offered constructive
    advice to people, related to immediate practical issues.  These
    antibodies thus take the form of constructive redirection, which means
    that people finally realize the former activity is not worth doing, and
    return to the latter.
      There are no perfect solutions.
    1.5)  Ridiculous number of posts on lists.
    Some people feel there is a huge number of posts on the lists.  Most of
    the old timers laugh at this, since the list is near quiet to them.
    Currently most of the posts are actually announcements from George and
    Richard.  Part the problem may be the lack of the "Crime" header which
    has now been added.
    2)  Why is there no list charter?
    For the same reason why C.R.I.M.E. has no bylaws, charter, or
    structure.  While other similar organizations languish over by-Laws,
    dues, membership, officers, and can't get consistent support or help, we
    pack rooms--with little or no advertising.
    Also any charter would just bring in more argument about the charter and
    do little to prevent what people think the charter is supposed to
    prevent.  Case in point.  Crispin nicely offered a charter a while
    back.  When we evaluated it we determined that the primary offender of
    this charter was Crispin himself.  We are sure he did not intend this,
    and therefore, had we implemented it, it would have precipitated a
    battle/discussion over its implementation and merely exacerbated the
    A Charter allows one group to leverage against another (groups size can
    be 1)--leading to further polarization.
    Until recently the "Noise" on the list has had substantive topics
    associated with it, rather than list politics.  Therefore to call it
    noise is an opinion.
    [Zot:  In my 26 years of being on the net, I have found charters,
    moderators, and the like to cause far more problems and solve almost
    none, that cannot be solved by the list/organization itself]
    3)  Moderator.
    An amazing number of people have called for a moderator and then stated
    it cannot be them.  This would be funny if it wasn't annoying.
    A moderator is single point of failure and a new point of dissension.
    4)  Experts on the lists.
    There has never been a claim that everyone on the list is a security or
    net expert. Therefore if folks are trying to remove themselves from the
    list, please be polite.
    Also, assume that the rest of the list does not know anything about
    "computer security."  Therefore, you will be understood by more people.
    5)  People asking to be removed from the list
    No one is subscribed to the list, everyone does it to themselves.
    Please go to the sucky webpages for more information.
    6)  What is ON-Topic?
    Everything and nothing.
    Nothing, if you consider there is always a better place to discuss it on
    the net.  Therefore we should not exist.  No one should ever write a
    book on a topic already covered.
    Everything, since C.R.I.M.E. covers Computer and non-computer related
    things.  At this level of discussion what is relevant next week is not
    always obvious today.  While something may seem Off-Topic to you, to
    others it is On-Topic.
    On the other-hand if there is a much better place to discuss it, then
    feel free to point a URL--but remember most people on this list do not
    know where to start and this list is one of the best starting places for
    There has been a recent influx people since 9-11.  This has also
    broadened the topics of concern.   It has also increased stress levels
    which, in turn, are occasionally reflected on the list..
    7)  SPAM on the list
    We appear to be on a Brazilian SPAMMERs list.  We seem to get 1 note
    every 3 weeks. This is not worth worrying about.
    Someone else recently posted a SPAM note (Gina St. Clair).  Feel free to
    track the roots of this email down and inform the ISP.
    8)  Droves of people quitting the list.
    Nope.  Either they can't or they haven't.  But the list fluctuations are
    less than normal.
    10)  Guidelines
    A separate post will cover etiquette guidelines.
    Geo and Zot

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