CRIME [Fwd: RE: [PLUG] C.R.I.M.E. Meeting - HPD rollout of Reserve Specialist Program - Tues, 12 March 2002 @ Verizon Airtouch @ 10AM]

From: Zot O'Connor (Zot_O'Connor@private)
Date: Thu Mar 07 2002 - 13:31:07 PST

  • Next message: Zot O'Connor: "CRIME [Fwd: [PLUG] SECOND ANNOUNCEMENT: March PLUG Meeting]" 

    this got dropped.

-- 
Zot O'Connor

http://www.ZotConsulting.com
http://www.WhiteKnightHackers.com

    attached mail follows:

    [Cross posted to the crime mail list] Ken, While I might agree with some of your points below I can confidently say you are full of feces. Why? Because I have worked with Government Agencies. I was asked about this program, and I whole heartily support it. Why do I support it? Simple, there is a misconception, that Ken propagates, that police are "them" and we different. The best policing is done by the community. You want to secure your neighborhood? Get a centralized bureaucracy to do it? Or is is better to get all the neighbors together and make everyone part of the process? One of the ways to create abuses of power, is to centralize that power. This program is slightly different still. There is a need at all police organizations for techincal skills. The choices to solve this need are "Hire Techincal people" or "Give skills to police officers." The first is tricky. Police agencies are unlikely to hire expensive people due to budgets. The cost of an effective techincal person, versus the effectiveness for all the police work does not make good economical sense. The second is iffy too. No offense to police officers, but getting any person with 4-6 years training, and 5 - 15 years experience to take on a whole knew area of expertise is asking alot. What works better is a version of the first. In many areas (e.g. chemical engineering) officers are not expected to have expertise. They ask the experts the questions and attempt to convert the meaning to a legal world. In the case of "computers" the issue comes up often, soon I expect 70% of all cases, but the level of expertise needed to make a decision is high. I personally have assisted officers on several cases. Sometimes is is asking a fairly easy question (how does email work), sometimes is much trickier (how can we track a death threat). Most of the time the issues are easy for me, and difficult for the officer. This program came about from an idea of George Heuston, formerly with the FBI, now with the Hillsboro Police Department. George pitched the idea of having "volunteer techincal reserve officers" who get the Law Enforcement training in forensics (from established teaching institutes) and then commit to a certain number of hours of community service to the police department. I loved it. Take your average officer and put him in the class. If he gets 30% out, we are lucky. Put a geek in the class and they will probably get closer to 80-90% (they probably know 60%). The geek can then use that knowledge in tandem with the officer to produce a more efficient investigative team. And BTW train the officer over time. George then pitched it to Chief Louie (Hillsboro Police Chief). He loved it. I have met with the Chief and he is a surprising character. He really believes in community based policing (vs policing of the communities). While he and Ken are likely to have differences on many issues, I think Ken would find more areas of agreement then he would comfortably admit to. And the is the purpose of the CRIME group. If you think this idea sucks, come and voice your opinion. Now is the time to get your words in. Chief Louie has offered to take this on. Obviously George and I are invested emotionally in this as well. The meetings are open, and fun. Ken raises some good issues. I hope to see and hear him there. On Thu, 2002-03-07 at 09:13, Ken Nowack wrote: > > That's nice and innocent sounding and all. But why > don't they just hire techs to do it? Why do they need > us? Budget reasons can't simply be the answer. And > further, once something gets started, it *will* get > expanded over time. Hence my previous comments. It > doesn't bother me that some people on this list > support this measure or that some people don't share > my opinion. However, I for one, am against *any* > partnerships with police departments, goverment > enforcement agencies, etc no matter how innocent they > sound. Exactly what computers would peole involved in > this program be working on? If previous experience and > history are any example then these computers will be > from 1. targeted groups/individuals that the public > and police beleive are a threat 2. groups/individuals > that are caught committing a crime 3. > groups/individuals that are being targetted due to > their political activity who haven't committed any > crime 4. groups/individuals that the law enforcement > agency wants to target for their own reasons. > > This is all par for the course post-9.11 > > Whats that old quote again...."People who sacrifice > freedom for security deserve neither" or something > like that. I'm sure the same proposals and programs > that were put in effect during McCarthyism sounded > just as innocent, but just look where we ended up. > Thousands upon thousands of people incarcerated or > deported for political ideas and ethnicity. Ain't > america great? > > Ken > > --- Michael Rasmussen <rasmussenm@private> > wrote: > > > From: Ken Nowack [mailto:drake_stuff@private] > > > > > > YAY! > > > > > > This is all we need. </sarcasm off> The last time > > we > > > had special departments/partnerships like this was > > > during McCarthyism. > > > > > > Actually, there were probably others. And they > > wonder > > > why people like me have the nerve to talk about > > the > > > erosion of civil rights. > > > > Um, Ken. Did you happen to find out what the > > reserve specialist program > > does? > > > > It is geeks who (for instance) help the police > > analyze impounded systems and > > get the data off into some format the police can > > understand. Something like > > expert witnesses so police can do police work rather > > than geek work. > > > > -- > > Michael Rasmussen - Network Engineer, Columbia > > Management > > voice: 971-925-6723 cell: 503-807-1447 > > rasmussenm@private > > <mailto:rasmussenm@private> > > http://www.columbiafunds.com > > > > NOTICE: This communication may contain confidential > > or other privileged information. If you are not the > > intended recipient, or believe that you have > > received this communication in error, please do not > > print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise > > use the information. Also, please indicate to the > > sender that you have received this email in error, > > and delete the copy you received. Any communication > > that does not relate to official Columbia business > > is that of the sender and is neither given nor > > endorsed by Columbia. Thank you. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Support PLUG and the Open Source Community > > http://www.linuxfund.org/lugs/?lug=plug > > To unsubscribe from the PLUG list visit > http://www.pdxlinux.org/mailing_list/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Support PLUG and the Open Source Community http://www.linuxfund.org/lugs/?lug=plug > To unsubscribe from the PLUG list visit http://www.pdxlinux.org/mailing_list/ > -- Zot O'Connor http://www.ZotConsulting.com http://www.WhiteKnightHackers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Support PLUG and the Open Source Community http://www.linuxfund.org/lugs/?lug=plug To unsubscribe from the PLUG list visit http://www.pdxlinux.org/mailing_list/

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