[I agree with the thrust of Roger's comments, but I'm not sure international treaties are a measure of how civilized a nation and a people are. Governments may formally sign conventions and realistically ignore them. I'd say the measure of civilization depends on respect for people, life, and property, on tolerance for dissenting political and religious views, on willingness not to reject technological advancements, on a commitment to defending our nation while staying true to the Constitution, and so on. Alas, by those measures, the U.S. is not doing so well either. --Declan] ******** Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:31:41 +1000 From: Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarkeat_private> Subject: FC: FBI wants to cast aside civil liberties, torture mentioned Cc: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:23:02 -0700 >To: politechat_private >From: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> > >From: staffat_private >To: declanat_private >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:09:57 -0700 > >This is a very scary opening sentence: > >"FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated by >the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda >network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional civil >liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract information >about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans." > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A27748-2001Oct20.html If the USA wanted to convince us how dangerous they are, not to say downright uncivilised, then they're doing well. A mere 40 days in the wilderness, and its President has instructed its security agencies to conduct assassinations, and now his law enforcement agencies are softening people up with a view to suspending UDHR, ICCPR, oh yes and probably the country's own Constitution. Given that Bush has frequently (incorrectly) referred to the campaign as a war, I guess we can safely assume that he's happy to suspend (or just ignore) the Geneva Convention as well. Which of the institutions that define 'civilisation' are left intact? It's one thing to feel sympathy with people frustrated by their inability to extract information, and fearful of attacks more effective than anthrax in envelopes. But it's another to revert to the morality of the stone age. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarkeat_private http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Fellow Department of Computer Science The Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Information Sciences Building Room 211 Tel: +61 2 6125 3666 ******** Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:18:38 -0700 To: declanat_private, politechat_private From: Lizard <lizardat_private> Subject: Re: FC: FBI wants to cast aside civil liberties, torture mentioned In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021221355.01feb600at_private> Mime-Version: 1.0 At 10:23 PM 10/21/2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >******** > >From: staffat_private >To: declanat_private >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:09:57 -0700 > >This is a very scary opening sentence: > >"FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated by >the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda >network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional civil >liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract information >about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans." Well, invest in companies making thumbscrews. ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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