************ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:24:23 -0500 To: declanat_private, sameerat_private From: Pat Farrell <pfarrellat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Followup to Audiophiles. RIAA, and electronic merchandisers Declan, this is probably a bit long, and maybe too technical, but it is part of the RIAA's attempt to destroy "Fair Use". And this is politech. At 01:44 PM 12/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-02946.html > >From: Sameer Parekh <sameerat_private> >Subject: Re: FC: Audiophiles find Washington ally in electronic merchandisers > > When did this happen? All the digital audio gear I've ever looked at >recently has a digital out. Who would buy a piece of digital gear without >a digital out? While all modern consumer audio (and DVD) players have digital outputs, to date, all of the digital outputs are disabled for high resolution audio data (SACD or DVD-A). Current SACD simply doesn't output anything with SACD media, altho they will output the PCM stream with 44.1/16 data. The DVD-A release was delayed as the members of the cartel try to find a suitable copy-prohibition scheme. There are two fundamental problem, the first is well know to cryptographers such as Sameer. First: any digital data can be exactly copied. It can be enciphered so that it is not useful with out the proper keys and algorithms, but that brings up the hard problem of key management. Copy protection is impossible with digital data. The DeCSS technical failure was one of key management. Robust key management is anathema to mass production. You want every key to be unique, with no pattern between keys. You want your mass production to make identical units. Rather than solving the key management issue, the current crop of SACD and DVD-A players simply prohibit digital out. Second, while the fundamental benefit of these high resolution media is to allow the labels to resell the same old back catalog albums (Led Zeppelin, Beatles, etc.) to the same folks who bought them twice already, the argument that the labels present is that the sonic characteristics are vastly superior to PCM 44/16. And they probably are correct (even if many of the folks who can afford these players, CDs, and suitable speakers can no longer hear well enough to really tell). The hard problem here is that the labels want to watermark the analog output. And have it carry on to second generation copies. Since the analog world is only 20-20kHz, anything that lives through the copy process will be audible, and make it sound worse than a 44/16 CD. So if they want to have the copy protection, they can't sell the improved audio. The RIAA is simply a front for the five recording labels. To see how It does not represent the interests of the current studios, recording engineers, or struggling artists, read any of the pro-audio trade magazines, such as Mix, or Recording. If the labels and RIAA cared about current performers, maybe they should show some interest in promoting folks other than Britney, the Back Street Boys, and 60s rock groups. Pat Pat Farrell pfarrellat_private VP, Engineering http://www.onebigcd.com ************ To: sameerat_private Cc: politechat_private, gnuat_private Subject: Re: FC: Followup to Audiophiles. RIAA, and electronic merchandisers In-reply-to: <20011218134410.A29950at_private> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:47:39 -0800 From: John Gilmore <gnuat_private> > > Industry Association of America (RIAA), have so far blocked digital > > outputs on high-resolution audio players, insisted that watermarks be > > inserted into both high- and low-resolution audio data, and have even > > started to restrict consumer's fair use of compact discs and digital > > downloads. > > When did this happen? All the digital audio gear I've ever looked at > recently has a digital out. Who would buy a piece of digital gear without > a digital out? Almost no portable MiniDisc decks have a digital out. "Music checks in, but never checks out." Most of them don't even have an analog line-out (only a headphone jack). The few decks that do have digital outs are twice the price of the ones that don't. Even these expensive decks still only have copy-protected outputs, requiring a piece of pro gear to turn off the copy protection bit so you can make copies of your own original recordings of your own original music. You might also notice that the new profusion of "MP3 / MiniDisc" interfaces only let the music go one way (MP3 onto MiniDisc). I have a large collection of home-recorded MiniDiscs that I want to transfer to my computer, to get them out of the copy-protected MiniDisc format. But somehow nobody builds a product that will transfer them. You probably won't notice this unless you comb through the ads, specifically looking for that capability. The sleazy, misleading ads imply that you can record and play either way with no restrictions. DVD Audio players are restricted from having high resolution digital outputs, just as DVD video players will not put the unencrypted video on a digital video connector (or even on an analog video connector without Macrovision). It's all enforced through a web of licenses that manufacturers have to sign in order to get the CSS "trade secret" so they can decode commercial DVDs. If this "trade secret" ever became publicly known, consumer electronics manufacturers would be able to build unrestricted DVD players, which consumers would love to buy. This is why the movie industry is fighting so hard to keep this open secret from ever legally entering the public domain, and also fighting in Congress for laws that would REQUIRE every company to put copy-protection systems into their products, whether they or their customers wanted these systems or not. The California Court of Appeals recently ruled that the First Amendment right of ordinary citizens to publish known facts prevents movie companies from censoring those citizens when they publish facts that they obtained legally but which the industry wants to suppress. The movie industry is appealing to the Supreme Court of California, which will consider whether to take that appeal soon. Meanwhile, EFF has asked the original San Jose court to dismiss the case, since the CSS is clearly not a secret any more, and even the movie industry has stopped chasing after sites that publish it, such as the Prof. Touretsky's Gallery of CSS Descramblers. For more details and updates, see: http://www.eff.org/Cases/DVDCCA_case/ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ John Gilmore ************ From: Bill Orme <Billat_private> To: "'declanat_private'" <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Followup to Audiophiles. RIAA, and electronic merchandisers Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:01:12 -0500 there are separate classifications/controls/even tariffs for so called "professional" digital audio gear (w/the digital in/outs) and "home" audio gear like $80 CD players etc (w/out the digital ports) www.aes.org has stuff on it, although apologies I can't remember where exactly (i'll google it later and have a look) -bill ************ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:15:34 -0500 From: sempai <emoryat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Followup to Audiophiles. RIAA, and electronic merchandisers Hi Declan! > When did this happen? All the digital audio gear I've ever looked at > recently has a digital out. Who would buy a piece of digital gear without > a digital out? I would. Not by choice, mind you, but when I was shopping for a minidisc deck and new minidisc MDLP portables, none of them have digital outs. I'm waiting a little bit before replacing my MD gear with MDLP with a digital out. But good luck finding one. My portable doesn't have digital out. Nor does my MD component piece. However, my turntables (!!) have SPDIF digital outputs on them. Go figure. he hears the soft sigh of his inhale, r. emory lundberg <emoryat_private> PGP Key: http://hellyeah.com/~emory/pgp.html ************ From: "George J. Janczyn" <gjanczynat_private> To: <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Followup to Audiophiles. RIAA, and electronic merchandisers Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:06:33 -0800 Methinks it isn't that there are no digital outs, it's that the digital outs are rigged to lower the quality. George ************ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:04:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Fredric <m_fredricat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> >> Industry Association of America (RIAA), have so far blocked digital >> outputs on high-resolution audio players, > When did this happen? All the digital audio gear I've ever looked at >recently has a digital out. Who would buy a piece of digital gear without >a digital out? I can't respond to the bit about watermarks, but the messed up DAT (Digital Audio Tape) technology is probably what the original writer was referring to in the "blocked digital output" comment. There is a fairly good summary of the matter at http://www.libertyhaven.com/noneoftheabove/sciencetechnologyortheinternet/freeingdigital.shtml (although I don't endorse the linked writer's message, and only offer the link FYI and FWIW). Nonetheless, given how many people (at the consumer level) ever bought a DAT machine, the comment about "who would buy" may be very apropos. -- Michael Fredric <m_fredricat_private> ************ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. 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