Previous Politech message: "Harvey Silverglate on DMA's very narrow definition of spam" http://www.politechbot.com/p-04961.html --- Reply-To: <benat_private> From: "Ben Isaacson" <benat_private> To: <declanat_private> Cc: "'Kevin Noonan \(E-mail\)'" <kevinat_private> Subject: RE: Harvey Silverglate on DMA's very narrow definition of spam Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:59:01 -0700 Organization: The Isaacson Group Declan, I swear to you I'm no longer employed or on retainer by the DMA. With that said, here are my thoughts on this: The DMA has clearly made a mistake in positioning itself behind 'the one bite at the apple' approach. There is absolutely no way email users can opt-out of every piece of legitimized spam in their inbox and expect to continue to use the medium effectively. However, the DMA position really isn't about email, it's about direct marketing. For more than eighty years, direct marketers have fought for opt-out; whether it is with financial, health, or marketing data. This is not a position easily changed, and more important--if it is changed, it will domino into all of the other opt-out positions the DMA has taken over its' history. Certainly this may be the time to start considering an overall opt-in approach to all data collection, but the majority of the DMA's 4000 member companies are not ready for that. Regards, Ben Isaacson The Isaacson Group p) 917-494-7717 f) 208-248-4638 benat_private ------------------------------------------------ Subscribe to our free monthly e-update, Issues & Interviews www.theisaacsongroup.com ------------------------------------------------ --- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:05:38 -0700 Subject: Declan, I'm worried about the Harvey From: Gerard Van der Leun <gvdlat_private> To: <declanat_private> CC: <hasat_private> Message-ID: <BB39ACA1.4C16%gvdlat_private> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715012118.044f8be0at_private> I love Silverglate in a manly way and find him second to no other in his rabid attack poodle defense of free speech. However, I must admit that his late missive also, in the sub-textual realms of deep deconstruction, gives us all way too much information about his possible leisure time activities. It is often thus with those who argue against one thing but picking an over the top example for contrast. Spam is spam and torture with ye olde 'hot poker up your ass' to borrow Harvey's felicitous phrase, is quite another. I receive spam on a daily basis, as, no doubt, do you and all the others checking into Politechbot. I have yet to feel it on the same basis as a cauterization of the nether regions, but then I do not, as a rule, take pleasure from such a process. My attitude towards span is much more free-wheeling than, I imagine, most of your readers. Yes, it is irritating in the same manner as a mosquito in the next room. But that is why God decreed the delete key and the filter. Yes, we should, by all means, work to eliminate this blight on the net, but couldn't we do something about the two pounds of daily junk mail I have to carry from my mailbox on the street to the recycling bin every day while we're at it? "Means of delivery," my ass. For Spam I have to set the filters and press a key. For junk mail I have to take a walk. Yes, Spam is EVOL! But don't you think that if the Nigerian Letters and Penis Extension scams did not on a daily basis separate fools from their money that they otherwise might use the cash for something really awful such as extending their already besotted relationship with AOL to a year's contract. And yes I know the "Dammit, I'm PAYING for my bandwidth and they are HOSING and stealing it" argument, but to those to whom much bandwidth is given much is required. If it were possible to match the email and online discussions ABOUT spam with the SPAM sent it would be interesting. Oh, no doubt they would be much more SPAM than outrage about spam. Still, it would be interesting. Couldn't we just get some Internet Libertarians with a SPAM hardon and the knowledge that they had contracted a deadly disease to just hunt down the spammers and shoot them dead at their keyboards? We needn't get them all. Just a few found leaking copious amounts of red fluid onto their hard-drives with a can of Spam stapled to their foreheads would give the others pause. And lastly, we know that the whole spam blatherfest has gotten way out of hand when we can parse a found poem by Harvey out of the message below. Sort of Ginsbergian in tone and subject matter: The Means of Delivery by Harvey Silverglate friendly torturer hot poker up your ass, the hot poker up your ass, it's not torture, where he's coming from what he's about to do to you your tormenter lets you know who he is and what he's doing to do. I prefer the latter (much as I prefer being slapped aroun having a hot poker shoved up my ass), in terms of what's a reasonable manner for delivery. ====== Hey Declan, According to Wientzen's way of thinking: If you're being held as a suspected terrorist, and your friendly torturer tells you that he's going to shove a hot poker up your ass, and then he indeed does shove the hot poker up your ass, it's not torture, since he was honest and straightforward in announcing to you, in advance, who he is and where he's coming from and what he's about to do to you? My point is that I'm not quite sure why it matters if your tormenter lets you know who he is and what he's doing to do. If you get 200 email a day from people seeking to entice you into a commercial (or fraudulent) transaction, it hardly matters if they're properly labelled. The only difference between proper labelling and "fraudulent" labelling is that the former has to be opened to see what's there, while the latter can be deleted while still unopened. While I prefer the latter (much as I prefer being slapped around rather than having a hot poker shoved up my ass), I don't see how proper labelling changes an unwanted email from being spam (although it does stop it from being fradulent). As you know, I'm a free speech absolutist, and I do not buy into the distinction between "core protected speech" and "commercial free speech", but I do believe in the imposition of "reasonable time, place and manner" restrictions, and it seems to me it's reasonable for spammers to ask, first, if you're willing to be placed on their spamming list. All people who do indeed respond favorably now and then to a spammed advertisement would agree; others, like me, would not opt in. In this regard, the email medium differs from receiving junk mail -- in terms of what's a reasonable manner for delivery. -- Gerard Van der Leun http://americandigest.org --- Subject: RE: Declan, I'm worried about the Harvey Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:53:07 -0400 From: "Harvey Silverglate" <hasat_private> To: "Gerard Van der Leun" <gvdlat_private>, <declanat_private> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought I was offering an analogy, not a memoir! Harvey -----Original Message----- From: Gerard Van der Leun [mailto:gvdlat_private] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:06 PM To: declanat_private Cc: Harvey Silverglate Subject: Declan, I'm worried about the Harvey I love Silverglate in a manly way and find him second to no other in his rabid attack poodle defense of free speech. However, I must admit that his late missive also, in the sub-textual realms of deep deconstruction, gives us all way too much information about his possible leisure time activities. It is often thus with those who argue against one thing but picking an over the top example for contrast. Spam is spam and torture with ye olde 'hot poker up your ass' to borrow Harvey's felicitous phrase, is quite another. I receive spam on a daily basis, as, no doubt, do you and all the others checking into Politechbot. I have yet to feel it on the same basis as a cauterization of the nether regions, but then I do not, as a rule, take pleasure from such a process. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ Like Politech? 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