--- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:58:23 -0800 To: cypherpunks From: John Young <jya@private> Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism, told to fuck off SA Renner did most of the talking and carried a manila folder with a file name on it beginning with "SP," I think. Couldn't see the remainder. He didn't open it during the session and it may have been a prop. They showed up without warning, no call ahead, got past our Doberman doorman (we're on the 6th floor) who usually calls us about visitors but didn't this time, and hasn't said a peep since the visit. (In contrast, when I got subpoenas for the Bell grand jury and trial, the doorman called up about the Treasury agents and I met them in the street level lobby.) Renner showed ID, asked to come in and talk. They were here about half an hour. I tried to get them to sit together but they carefully bracketed me. They asked who works with me on Cryptome, who funds it. Me and me alone, I said. The FBI agents asked about nobody except me. Renner asked for ID and I showed him Duncan's, or maybe it was Declan's. I sent an account to cpunks right after the visit but LNE never processed it, nor three more later. Hence this algebra late comer. --- From: Tim May Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism, told to fuck off Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:01:00 -0800 To: cypherpunks On Nov 8, 2003, at 11:06 AM, Anonymous wrote: >> Cryptome received a visit today from FBI Special Agents Todd Renner >> and Christopher >> Kelly from the FBI Counterterrorism Office in New York, 26 Federal >> Plaza, telephone >> 212) 384-1000. Both agents presented official ID and business cards. > > Good stuff. Pigs getting concerned about cryptome means they are > scared. > > I don't understand how this "Anonymous" can title a post with the phrase "told to fuck off" when John Young's account clearly said that he allowed the Feebs to enter his area and even had them sitting on either side of him. I cannot claim to know what I would do, or will do, if Feds ever visit my home, but I hope I will have the presence of mind to tell them to: a) get off my property b) or to arrest me In either case, talking to them will not help. The way the Reichssecuritat is getting convictions these days is to charge sheeple with "lying to Federal agents." Nothing in the Constitution allows compelled speech, except under limited (and I think unconstitutional) cases involving grand juries ordering a person to speak. (Or where use or blanket immunity has been granted, again, probably an unconstitutional measure, as it is compelling potentially self-incriminating evidence which may very well be used in either another case or be twisted to provide a basis for another case.) I hope I will have the self-presence to say "You are trespassing. Get off my property, right now!" Cooperating with cops snooping around looking for either thoughtcrime or "terrorist aid and support" is a lose, a big lose. Speculating wildly, the real target may be John Young himself. And nearly anything he said to these narcs may be construed, by them and by their malleable DAs, as "lying to a Federal investigator." People should not talk to the Feds. If the Feds come calling, refer them to one's lawyer. For those who don't have a lawyer on retainer, tell them that you need to consult with a lawyer first. Whether you do or you don't is beside the point. The point is to not talk to them. "Lying to a Federal investigator" is how they probably hope to get Cryptome shut down and John's kind of dissent quelled. --Tim May --- From: Freematt357@private Message-ID: <145.1c8a3431.2ce7d38f@private> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:07:59 EST To: jya@private Cc: cypherpunks In a message dated 11/10/2003 3:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jya@private writes: > They showed up without warning, no call ahead, got > past our Doberman doorman (we're on the 6th floor) > who usually calls us about visitors but didn't this time, > and hasn't said a peep since the visit. > Why open the door to them? I have a few friends who as a matter of principle do not open their doors to people they do not know. Letting a Fedgoon in is akin to inviting a vampire into your house. Regards, Matt- --- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:05:05 -0800 To: cypherpunks From: John Young <jya@private> Old-Subject: Re: Gestapo harasses John Young, appeals to patriotism, told to fuck off Matt wrote: >Why open the door to them? I have a few friends who as a matter of principle >do not open their doors to people they do not know. Letting a Fedgoon in is >akin to inviting a vampire into your house. I was expecting someone else at about the same time. True, I could have refused entry after the agent showed his ID. However, it seemed too good an opportunity to pass up: it is pretty common for Cryptome to get unexpected contributions. We try to remain open lines of communication to unknown sources, if not a goodly amount of info would never come out way. For all I knew, and now know, the Special Agents were frauds, of which Cryptome gets a taste regularly, perhaps more than we know. As discussed here, spoofing is trivial to do. Toward the end of the visit I asked SA Kelly to see his ID up close and he displayed a wallet with a brass badge on the left and a two-leaf ID on the right: flip left, then flip up. Was it real? The two-leaf ID looked like the version SA Renner showed at the door. Trim haircuts and dark suits, healthy-looking young Caucasians, no facial hair, shined shoes, clean teeth, no noticeable mouth or body odor, no obvious weapon bulges, polite, actually not polite all the time: there were a few instances when mild friction occurred, low-key warnings sent my way about inadvertent threats to the nation with too much information like that on Cryptome. SA Renner was cooler than Kelly during questioning -- Kelly slightly bristled when I made a comment about free flowing information making the US stronger, the agent saying, yes, but information can be misused. He bristled a lot more when I said I would publish their names, "make them famous." At the word "famous" Kelly said, smiling "really, I haven't had that before." Renner was quieter on naming names, knowing that there was a CNN story out about him. But he too mildly protested with the "hazard to the family" shtick. Kelly said, "you know we can be found by knowing our names, get shot for what we do." That reminded me of Jeff Gordon, but I didn't snort. Kelly leaned forward in his wing-back chair, slightly aggressive, whereas Renner sat upright at a table, case file in front, posing most of the questions to me. Now, if I had refused the agents entry could I be telling this dinky inside story? Perhaps better will be the second visit, or door-busting and marching downstairs in handcuffs, or dark-van-snatch on the street, or my family and customers and friends questioned and warned, my assets seized and listed in the New York Times, gosh, what notoriety being a questionable patriot can lead to -- maybe right up there at the foot soles of the Special Agents, real or fraudulent. Confirming the allegation about idiot witnesses, I am sure I would not recognize either agent if I saw them again. The IDs yes, and the questions, but not the bland biometrics. _______________________________________________ Politech mailing list Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Tue Nov 18 2003 - 09:47:51 PST