Previous Politech message:
http://www.politechbot.com/2005/03/02/canada-deports-ernst/
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Politech] Canada deports Ernst Zundel to Germany after
trial with secret evidence [fs]
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:44:20 -0800
From: Brad Templeton <btm@private>
Organization: http://www.templetons.com/brad
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@private>
CC: politech@private
References: <42255C20.40101@private>
On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:24:32AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Ernst Zundel first came to my attention around a decade ago when he
> created a website called, of course, the "Zundelsite." It became one of
> the more popular Holocaust denial (Zundel would probably call it
> "Holocaust revisionist") destinations around.
Zundel was famous in Canada long before that. He was the test case that
went all the way to the supreme court, the second serious test of the
new charter of rights regarding free speech. He had published a pamphlet
called "Did 6 million really die?" (He did not write the pamphlet.)
He was charged under the false news law:
181. Every one who wilfully publishes a statement,
tale or news that he knows is false and that causes or is likely to
cause injury or mischief to a public interest is guilty of an
indictable
offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.
The lower courts upheld this law, but the supremes eventually struck it
down. They had not struct down a narrower "hate speech law" because the
Canadian charter has a fat exception in it not present in the US bill
of rights. The case was particularly famous because the Crown had to
call witnesses to prove in court the holocaust was true.
Anyway, it seems Zundel's adversaries won in the end.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Politech] Canada deports Ernst Zundel to Germany after
trial with secret evidence [fs]
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:57:17 +0000
From: David Cantrell <david@private>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@private>
References: <42255C20.40101@private>
On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:24:32AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Relying on secret evidence is no
> way to run a free society, and punishing someone for even odious
> political views is wrong. (Remember this the next time Ottawa lectures
> Washington on human rights.)
Hear hear!
But it's also worth remembering that when Ottawa lectures Washington
about the plank in Washington's eye, Ottawa has a mere speck in its eye.
A troublesome speck to be sure, but still only a speck.
Current developments in the UK with regard to supposedly
"anti-terrorist" laws look rather worrying. There's good coverage in
The Register at (eg)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/01/terror_act_liberties/
--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Politech] Canada deports Ernst Zundel to Germany after
trial with secret evidence [fs]
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:10:16 -0800
From: Jill E. Vaile <jill@private>
Reply-To: jill@private
Organization: jilleliz.com
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@private>
References: <42255C20.40101@private>
and regarding Ernst- (as a longtime resident of Canada) he was at the
time he first emerged with his hate-mongering, of all things, a high
school teacher, and was teaching his anti-Semitism to his students!
That Canada actually kicked him out of the country is a HUGE position
for the Canadian government to take, legal reason to proceed
notwithstanding. It's well known Canada pretty much takes in anyone- the
fact that they did this is something to cheer about!
Best-
jill e. vaile
northern california's finest
freelance music photographer
photojournalist
NEWFAngled Designs©
18122 rose court
los gatos, ca. 95033
408.353.2298
http://jilleliz.com/
jill@private <mailto:jill@private>
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Politech] Canada deports Ernst Zundel to Germany after
trial wit h secret evidence [fs]
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:32:42 -0400
From: Stephen Downes <stephen@private>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@private>
References: <42255C20.40101@private>
Hiya,
This account of the Zundel case is misleading and in some
respects false.
Zundel left Canada for the United States in 2001 in order to
escape a Canadian Human Rights Commission hearing he was
about to lose.
During his long encounter with the Canadian legal system prior
to his departure, he had in fact been convicted of criminal charges,
however, that conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court -
the same court now responsible for sending him to Germany.
Zundel is not a Canadian citizen and does not therefore have an
automatic right to return to Canada. When he was returned to
Canada by the United States, he sought refugee status in
order to prevent his return to Germany, where he is a citizen, and
where he would face charges for violating German law.
Tne suggestion that Zundel did not receive a free and fair
trial is laughable. First, it is not necessary to prove a criminal
conviction in order to deny a person refugee status. Second, it is
not clear that secret evidence was used to deport Zundel. And
third, deportation is not a penalty of any sort, it is a denial of
a privilege that Zundel, as a foreign citizen, sought in Canada.
And fourth, the Supreme Court ruling concludes a lengthy
hearing held in a public forum.
You write, "Relying on secret evidence is no way to run a free
society, and punishing someone for even odious political views
is wrong. (Remember this the next time Ottawa lectures
Washington on human rights.)"
Canadians are pretty clear on how Washington approaches
human rights, particularly with regard to the treatment of non-
U.S. citizens. The Zundel case is, indeed, an example of a case
where the U.S. employed an arbitrary enforcement of law to
send Zundel back to Canada rather than his native Germany
(the U.S. routinely uses deportations to make political points;
hence the recent deportation of a Canadian citizen to Syria).
Canada does not maintain extra-territorial concentration camps
where so-called detainees are held without trial. Canada does not
set up prisons world-wide in which to systematically torture
its children. Canada does not execute prisoners and certainly
not children or the mentally handicapped. Canada does not invade
foreign nations on false pretexts. Canada does not maintain
stockpiles of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of
mass destruction.
I don't think that the removal of a racist Nazi hate-monger to
his native country really balances this. And I further express
concern about the health of a nation in which the foment and
expression of such hatred is protected by law. Perhaps there
is not so wide a chasm between how the United States protects
hate within its own borders and how it conducts itself around
the world.
-- Stephen
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