Bess - and others. Please, I'm not disparaging recruiters. Some of my best friends are in that business as was my mother before she retired. But recruiters, like managers and candidates, are human and have a wide spread of personality. One of the best guys I know at making placements seems to never stop talking but he seems to know the candidates better than the ones that "listen". In this business, there are many people who adopt techie/nerd roles and work hard at projecting that, to their own detriment. Hagbard Celene said that true communication is only possible between equals. There is a great gap between people filling technical-type roles and people filling "HR" type roles. All to often some communication falls between the cracks. A great deal of that communication is to do with motivation. Many recruiters - especially the higher echelon (i.e. more "successful" ones - are motivated by money because that is how they and those around them measure success. Many technical people are not motivated by money, its just a means of keeping score. Take a peek at DeMarcos "Peopleware" for many illustrations of this. Bess it right about the 'factors', but in reality there's a lot more to it than that. I've recently had two different recruiters approach me with the same position. One told me that the resume I had written for me (though he didn't know that), while showed I was highly skilled, made it clear I was unsuitable for the position. The other presented the same resume to the manager and the response was, I quote, "WOW". I have an interview this PM. Same resume, same manager, same job description, same position, same me, just two different recruiters. One refused to present me, one made it happen. What's wrong with this picture? As for personality, its a NxM way street. I've had managers turn me down when I was single because 'single men are too flightily and don't have anything to tie them down' and when I was married for just the opposite reason. I've had managers ell me I'm too quiet and others too forward. You can't just say 'personality' and leave it at that. I'm glad Bess works to deal with the manager directly. However do be warned, many organisations will not permit this. In general its not the recruiter's fault if this situation arises. Its the 'way the system works.' But I agree about feedback. Only its not always easy. Many managers will not disclose, either to the candidate or to the recruiter, what the picture is and play mind-f**k games. Sometimes you simply can't tell. I recall on my rounds at graduation, after half a dozen interviews I was numb and even getting the names confused -- overload time! As a manager, I've also had overload with too many candidates, and - pay attention recruiters - too many resumes. As I said, I'd realy like to have just one resume, 40 pages of informative lucid prose on the right candidate. I'm thinking of adopting a policy of telling head-hunters that they can send me one and only one candidate that they think I the right one, no resume before hand. If the candidate isn't suitable, they don't get another chance. If he or she is suitable but there isn't a closing they do get another chance, but I don't want my desk covered in resumes! Let me give a tip to the recruiters about security people. Security is not a purely or even mainly technical roles. It is a corporate governance role. Security is about protecting the enterprise and its assets. Some of those assets are on computers. Some of those assets on computer can be protected by technological means and so require people with technical knowledge to work with it. But there's more to it. Being an ace technologist does not make you good at security, since so much of security has nothing to do with technology. The corollary to this is being an ace IT recruiter doesn't make you an ace security recruiter. The right security person for the job may not have wonderful technology skills. Having an security mindset is more important than having superb technical knowledge. I'd be happy to discuss that one-on-one with recruiters. I'm simply not going to argue it with technologists who think differently. Anton J Aylward, CISSP > -----Original Message----- > From: Bess Panagiotou [mailto:bessat_private] > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:44 AM > To: 'ajaat_private'; Hedges, Nigel; securityjobsat_private > Subject: RE: advice please > Importance: High > > > > I usually don't post on this discussion forum but I thought that I should. > > I would like to discuss a couple of factors that have been posted on this board. > > As a Recruiter we are usually hired by the company . The person we may/may not have > Is the Human Resources person. However, most half descent > recruiters will deal directly with the hiring Manager. > > There are several factors that may come into the situation. > > 1) Experience- although the resume may not clearly reflect > your experience- it is up to you to include some transferable skills. > 2) Technical Depth- I may not be expert on Security but I > attempt to listen to both my applicants and my clients.- The > current economy allows companies to now take their time and > sift through the various candidates . > 3) Personality- The most important factor that candidates > may/may not know when you go out to an organization.This is > one of the most important things. If you do not get along with > the Manager or if there is a personality conflict based on > approaches, management , group dynamic. You may agree that > you are all professionals but you must be able to like each > other in a professional manner. Most candidates are not even > aware of this factors and it is usually up to Recruiter to > convey that message in an efficient manner. > 4) Feedback- This is one of the most frustrating factors > that may come into play for all concerned. When a recruiter > has feedback he conveys it if not he/she will attempt to get > some sort of response . We all attempt to conduct our jobs > professionally. > > In short, I know that negative comments have been made about > recruiters. I would also like to state that I have dealt with > some very rude and abrupt candidates and some exceptional > candidates. I know that I am not be the perfect recruiter > nor do I attempt to be, however, I do my job to the best of > my ability and if that is not good enough for my candidates > or clients then I would appreciate some honesty and candour as > to how I can help you( CLIENTS & CANDIDATES) better. > > > Just my 2 cents worth > Have a Great Weekend Folks > Bess > > Bess Panagiotou > IT Consultant > MIS Consultants > 55 Eglinton Ave East > Suite 701 > Toronto, ON > 1-800-311-2828 > (416)-489-4334 X 225 > Bessat_private > http://www.misconsult.com > > > NOTE: THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS FOR THE ADDRESSED PERSON ONLY. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anton J Aylward, CISSP [SMTP:ajaat_private] > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 8:05 PM > To: Hedges, Nigel; securityjobsat_private > Subject: RE: advice please > > << File: ATT00005.txt; charset = iso-8859-1 >>
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