>Hello?
Hi.
>I think you do not really understand what I was trying to say - try
>'Turing "halting problem"' in google.com. Nowadays, the analysis of all
>possible execution paths for any given program (for example to find an
>answer whether certain code will be executed or not, and in what order - a
>critical issue for static, automated detection of dynamic vulnerabilities)
>is excessively time consuming and completely not feasible in most cases.
>There are certain specific cases when this is not true, and certain very
>limited scopes we can accurately examine (some applications do - e.g.
>compilers try to elliminate dead code, some source code audit applications
>look for potentially vulnerable patterns and apply certain heuristic
>algorithms to decrease the number of false positives, etc). But there's no
>way to universally predict the behavior of a complex application.
True. I would add that the final execution path, the most critical behavior
of all, and also the most difficult to evaluate in a dynamic system, is
whether the subject is to be hostile or not. That is much harder to
determine than whether a number is prime or not.
However, what does that have to do with pinpointing vulnerabilities?
Vulnerabilities are not about how a process is to behave, but based on what
information - and its integrity - it is to behave. Predictable behavior, in
the context of security analysis, only gives you the ability to increase
granularity. It is not a requirement for any security analysis.
I do not see, then, how vulnerabilities are linked to execution paths. An
application does not become vulnerable simply because it took execution path
A instead of path B. It was already vulnerable in first place because it
based its decision on untrustworthy information.
>Basically, there are two main problems with formal analysis - identifying
>the potential vulnerability (which requires a formal model of accepted or
>unacceptable behavior),
"first problem to getting something is knowing what you want"
>and determining whether it can be an actual risk
>(which can be reduced to the halting problem, pretty much).
Risk must be determined by trust, not behavior. Then it's not a problem
anymore.
>Example: there is a program that is checking whether some <<insert your
>favorite big number here>>-digit number is actually a prime. If so, it
>enables you to exploit a buffer overflow (let's just say "enter endless
>loop"), if not, it simply dies with some error message ("stop"). It would
>take the program 10 years to check this prime. It uses the best prime
>checking algorithm we know at this point. Do you know a way to tell
>whether the program will stop or not (will be vulnerable or not) without
>actually wasting ten years (or comparable amount of time) on your computer
>to check it?
No. And not really interested in knowing. The integrity of my process comes
to rely entirely on that function whose output is unknown. You trust it? I
would not. In a security setting, that would be the exact thing I would
consider a vulnerability in my integrity model.
>Do you know what would be the implication of having a "yes"
>answer to this question?
Lie.
>And that's not all - our "endless loop" condition is pretty clear in this
>particular case, but sometimes it is not that trivial. Think about
>authentication bypassing, etc. There needs to be a model of an erratic
>behavior for this particular program, and the model itself must be
>designed without flaws, which is not trivial. But I am not gonna argue
>here - it is certainly doable and being done - it is just expensive, time
>consuming and prone to problems.
Most likely been done already. In the 70's. At the time when information
security was a science.
>Knowing the way to solve the halting problem for infinite Turing machines
>in finite time would very likely enable us to perform this analysis for
>finite machines in no time (and have dramatic implications not only for
>computer security).
>That is why I find the claim "finds all exploitable bugs" is at least
>ridiculous -
Notion of 'exploitable bug', as seen on this mailing list, is ridiculous
itself. I guess all concepts derived inherit from the property.
>it implies that both problems were solved. It can find "some
>potential bugs caused by certain command-line and environment variables
>interaction", but not "all exploitable bugs in the application".
>Regards,
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Mar 28 2002 - 08:17:12 PST