Subject: Re: Reconciliation Time From: macdonaldwat_private (Big Mac) Date: 1998/04/24 Message-ID: <354075d1.7752036at_private> Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish [More Headers] [Subscribe to soc.culture.irish] On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:14:50 +0000, taigat_private (Greagoir) wrote: >Brendan Heading <brendan.headingat_private> wrote: > >> As for the IRA ceasefire, it was actually Martin Hanna (where are you >> these days, Martin ?!) who suggested that the security forces were >> making significant advances on the IRA. I did echo this later on, but I >> don't know any of the real details about the security forces' progress - >> perhaps someone else does. >> -- >> Brendan Heading > > >However Martin is not an expert and most people regard that theory as >complete crap. The Peace process is well recorded and you are missing >most of it out, why I don't know. You know very little about the IRA and >Martin might have known less. Martin was spot on, I think. Wasn't the military pressure increasing in the early 1990's? I thought that this was what lay behind the revelations from the Brian Nelson trial - the British were using the loyalists to take out particular republicans with considerable success. AIUI the security forces themselves had adopted a tactic of harassing the families and known associates of republicans, in preference to the republicans themselves, to help deepen their isolation and maximise the pressure on them. A two-pronged strategy that is just as brutal as anything the SAS did earlier, but much better for British propaganda purposes, and much harder for the IRA to counter. However, the key change was the end of the Cold War and the collapse of anti-imperialist movements around the world. Ireland couldn't remain immune from this profound development. Subject: Re: Poor confused Orangemen!!!!! From: snattersat_private (Greigat_private) Date: 1998/05/18 Message-ID: <1d98o39.1e871yo9fbhbjN@ppp47-49.dial.nildram.co.uk> Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish [More Headers] [Subscribe to soc.culture.irish] Roger <roger@gil-blk.dnet.co.uk> wrote: > snattersat_private (Greigat_private) wrote: > > >Roger <roger@gil-blk.dnet.co.uk> wrote: > > >> All this did was demonstrate your anti-Orange tendencies without > >> knowledge of what the Order is all about. > > >They were always *anti-catholic* bigots and were formed to clear Armagh > >of Catholics. > > > They were initially formed as a defensive organisation against > militant RC's raiding and attacking their homes, after such an > organised attack by RC's from Tyrone. > > Roger Thats shit they pre-existed as a thing already as the Peep O'Day Boys that is Orange Propaganda they *already* existed, they used marches to this effect and formed *before* the Defenders in this area. We find the Unionist Historians Lecky and Stewart helpful in this regard. In addition:- Edmund Burke the ultra conservative wrote chastising the catholics for *disarming* thereby making the anti-catholic genocide a possibility. The aforesaid historians agree with my perspective, where will we find an opposing perspective on an Orange Website? One of their authorised histories? They fabricate *their* history. I shall quote Edmund Burke in a letter to Maynooth, Roger, Orange history is *invented* they make it up to justify their thing, it is not reality except in their anti-catholic fantasies. No one credits them with intellectual honesty they were murdering bigots the day they were formed and they are *still* bigots as Drumcree proves only too well. Edmund Burke on the Orange Pogroms : (this reference can be found in History Ireland Vol5 No4). "I am not at all surprised at it and consider it one of the natural consequences of a measure better intended than considered - that of the Catholic clergy persuading the laity to give up their arms. Dreadful it is, but it is now plain enough that catholic defenderism is the only restraint upon Protestant ascendancy" In addition we have an Orangeman himself telling us this: William Blacker was one of the very few landed gentry to join the Order and he spoke at the time of the Battle of the Diamond. "Unhappily a determination was expressed of driving from this quarter of the county the entire population of the Roman Catholic population..a written notice was thrown into or posted upon the door of a house warning the inmates in the words of Oliver Cromwell to betake themselves "to Hell or to Connaught" " Page 226 A History of Ulster the original reference is David W Miller I think he studied Peep O'Dayism. The Lord Gosford who was Governer of Armagh had this to day about the species that was Organgism: (F Heatley 1967) other sources Belfast Pogroms and Liz Curtis etcetera it is well known. "It is no secret that a persecution ..is now raging in this County; neither age nor sex, etc. is sufficient to excite mercy, much less to afford protection. The only crime which the wretched objects of this ruthless persecution are charged with, is a crime of easy proof; it is simply a profession of the Roman Catholic faith, or an intimitate connection with a person professing this faith. A lawless bandittii have constituted themselves judges of this new species of delinquencey , and the sentence they have denounced is equally concise and terrible - it is nothing less than a confisca of all property and immediate banishment" Look Roger the Orange *was* Peep O'Day terrorism and was merely seeking a methodoly that might allow a fore open association than what was after all a criminal gang. The first marches or Orange walks were Peep O'Day Gangs traversing the county Armnmagh looking for victims and if they were stopped it was a church parade but on these "walks" Catholics got their "Hell or Connacht" notices. Your reference for the transition from Peep O'Dayism to something a little less obvious is Lecky vol iii P 429. I might also suggest that the two Parliamentary select Committees of enquiry of 1835 offer a good insight into this "fraternity" from hell. A general order of suppression followed. There were commissions in 1857, 1864 and 1886 all invoving massive anti-catholic persecution. The people who found against the order were protestants and unionists. The Orange Order by Rev. H W Cleary is also an insightful glimpse into "Orangism" as it manifests itself. Greig
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