Eitan, You are welcome. Thank you for taking the time to test Sygate Personal Firewall. However, in this case, I think you are making an issue out something that is trivial to anyone who understands the use of rights and privileges within the Windows Operating Systems. I suggest that in the future you vet vulnerabilities you post with security experts, the editor of the newsgroup, and the vendor of the related product prior to posting on a widely distributed newsgroup such as bugtraq. The editor of NTBugtraq seems to feel that same way: "In this case, Eitan has overstated the severity of the issue, IMNSHO... While I think its great that people like Eitan are entering into the security realm, I think properly stating the severity of issues is as important. When the discoverer puts such comments into their advisories, it should be vetted (pre or post publication). I do this with every post to NTBugtraq, which is why the volume is so low there." Russ - NTBugtraq Editor If you wish to submit a vulnerability directly to Sygate for vetting please send email to security-alertat_private . We also plan to add a note to the product documentation and support website explaining that "priviledged" users (users with the right to stop a service) have the right to stop the Sygate Personal Firewall service without the password. I would also like to clarify the fact that you tested a consumer product not Sygate Secure Enterprise, which includes an enforcement component that prevents users (even Administrators) from accessing enterprise and government networks if they are not running Sygate Security Agent. I have addressed your specific comments individually below. Seth Knox Product Manager Sygate Technologies To: BugTraq Subject: RE: Sygate Personal Firewall can be shut down without a need to supply Date: Dec 5 2002 10:01PM Author: Eitan Caspi <eitancaspiat_private> Hello Seth, Thanks for taking the time to comment about this issue. 1. As you may noticed, I used the term "privileged users". Stopping service is enabled for the members of the local power users as well, so the problem range is wider. *****Response****** I agree with this point. Any user with the ability to stop a service can stop the Sygate Personal Firewall service. ************************** 2. I will sharpen my point: You are absolutely correct about the fact that local admins can stop services. If you will see in my note, I wrote: " Privileged users CAN START the procedure of stopping the service - BUT, the application vendor CAN (as part of the overall procedures performed when an application is being shut down) place a code section that forces a password prompt at the beginning of the stopping process and if the password is wrong - to stop the stopping process. " I ask you this: Do you claim that what I wrote is technically wrong and it can't be done by sygate? *****Response****** What you wrote is technically wrong. There are a multitude of ways to stop a process as a "privileged user". Ultimately, it is impossible for Sygate to prevent a user with the rights to stop the service from stopping the service by "placing a code section that forces a password prompt at the beginning of the stopping process and if the password is wrong - to stop the stopping process." Even if we could do this, I don't think we would. Imagine this scenario; You are the administrator of a computer, you install Sygate Personal Firewall without enabling password protection, a normal user logs in and sets a password. The result under your proposed implementation would be that the administrator of the system wouldn't be able to log into the Sygate Personal Firewall or even stop the service. Of course, he could always uninstall the application, which brings me back to my original point. Administrators and Power users have the right to stop services and uninstall programs including Sygate Personal Firewall. If you don't want a user stopping the Sygate Personal Firewall service, don't give them that Right. The NTBugtrack editor has another scenario for you that makes your argument a moot point: "This is a description of a GUI interface, and not the underlying actions/permissions/rights. IOWs, it is possible for a developer to code something into their service which, when the service detects a shutdown request, causes that service to execute some action (such as prompting for a password). This does not mean that the service could not be "stopped". If a user has the right to stop a service, they also have the right to modify its startup behavior, including setting it to disabled or manual. Since that action has nothing to do with the running service, the service could be "stopped" by simply changing the setting and restarting the machine...at which time the service would not start." ****************************** If this is the claim and it is technically true (I'm not a developer, but a system admin) - I redraw my claims and ask for your forgiveness. ****Response****** I forgive you but I would appreciate it if you retract your mistaken claims. ********************* If you are not able to claim this - then Sygate has just overlooked this problem and didn't close this breach. 3. Let's be accurate here: YOU added, in your email, the words "non-administrator". I never claimed the "password for exit" is meant only for "non-administrator" users. Neither did Sygate!!!- I have seen the help for the product on your web site - and the password feature was not even mentioned by text or in the screen shot of the "general" tab!!! Probably the help pages was not so updated... *Response****** I apologize. I should not have used the term "non-administrator". Instead, I should have used the term "users without the rights to stop a service". However, I don't think this is material to the argument given the points made in item 2. **************** A false sense of security is certainly a vulnerability. )The above section of the email was written before re-visiting the help web pages of the product. The following section was written after a re-visit) NOW, I have just re-visited the help pages and I must say I'm shocked!!! Just a day or two ago I visited the web help for the product and the section describing the "general" tab showed a screen shot of an earlier version of the product and the whole "password protection" section was missing from the picture!!! And of course there was no explanation about this feature!!! When I entered NOW to the same page ( http://soho.sygate.com/support/documents/spf_help/general_tab.htm ) - Suddenly the screen shot is showing the "password protection" feature and there is even an explanation to the feature. *Response****** I checked and the page you referred to has not been changed since October and it was certainly not changed based on your report. **************** But that's not all - here comes the best: The screen shot shows that the "ask password while exiting" is dimmed and can't be chosen and the password description is not explaining about this check box at all!!! *******Response********* The reason that the "ask password while exiting" box is dimmed is that you have to enter a password before the check box is able to be checked. *************************** Beside the fact that this is not the actual current application behavior but only a specially crafted form - what you are doing by this is arrogantly covering your blame!!! *******Response******** At this point, you aren't making much sense. The application does exactly what we describe on the page: "Enabling Password Protection will protect your settings from being changed by another user. Password Protection will prompt you to enter your password every time you access the Sygate Personal Firewall main console." Notice that this statement does not claim that it is impossible for an Administrator or Power User to stop the service. However, we will add a note on that page to make sure there is no confusion. *************** I can't express my absolute rejection feelings towards this act! Security is first of all credibility - and as far as my concern: You just lost it! *****Response****** Let's keep this type of debate professional. I did not attack your credibility in my response. Please don't attack mine. I think you should take this a little less seriously if you have "absolute rejection feelings towards this act!" ************ Eitan Caspi Israel -----Original Message----- From: Seth Knox [mailto:seth.knoxat_private] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:14 PM To: 'bugtraqat_private' Cc: 'eitancaspiat_private' Subject: Sygate Personal Firewall can be shut down without a need to supply If you are an Administrator of a computer, you have the absolute right to stop any service, including the Sygate Personal Firewall Service, using the services window or "net stop" command. This is not a vulnerability but rather the intended implementation of the Microsoft operating system. If the administrator of the computer wants to prevent other users from stopping the Sygate Personal Firewall Service, they should not grant that right to other users. As you mentioned in your email, Sygate Personal Firewall has the option to prevent any non-administrator from exiting the firewall or stopping the application from the task menu without a password. In enterprise and government organizations, Sygate Secure Enterprise initiates a challenge/response enforcement protocol that ensures that Sygate Security Agent, as well as third-party applications, are running and up-to-date before any system can connect to the network. Seth Knox Product Manager Sygate Technologies ----- -----Original Message----- From: Russ To: eitancaspiat_private; bugtraqat_private Sent: 12/5/02 4:23 PM Subject: RE: Sygate Personal Firewall can be shut down without a need to supply a password - although one is required Eitan said; "Privileged users CAN START the procedure of stopping the service - BUT, the application vendor CAN (as part of the overall procedures performed when an application is being shut down) place a code section that forces a password prompt at the beginning of the stopping process and if the password is wrong - to stop the stopping process." This is a description of a GUI interface, and not the underlying actions/permissions/rights. IOWs, it is possible for a developer to code something into their service which, when the service detects a shutdown request, causes that service to execute some action (such as prompting for a password). This does not mean that the service could not be "stopped". If a user has the right to stop a service, they also have the right to modify its startup behavior, including setting it to disabled or manual. Since that action has nothing to do with the running service, the service could be "stopped" by simply changing the setting and restarting the machine...at which time the service would not start. While I think its great that people like Eitan are entering into the security realm, I think properly stating the severity of issues is as important. When the discoverer puts such comments into their advisories, it should be vetted (pre or post publication). I do this with every post to NTBugtraq, which is why the volume is so low there. In this case, Eitan has overstated the severity of the issue, IMNSHO. Members of the Administrators and Power Users group have many ways they can manipulate the operation of a Windows environment (any version). They are "privileged users", and as such, must be endorsed to be trustworthy. If you cannot trust individuals using those accounts, then custom privileges should be assigned (leaving them out of pre-defined groups). You can stop them from shooting themselves in the foot, but you cannot stop them from intentionally modifying the operation of the system. Any expectation that you can is the real "false sense of security". Sygate have silently acknowledged this by not bothering to prompt for the password. This should be clearly documented, and if its not, that then is their mistake. Cheers, Russ - NTBugtraq Editor
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