RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland

From: Ron_Deming@private
Date: Mon Nov 26 2001 - 16:25:15 PST

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    Don't be overly impressed by this statute.  It's being widely quoted, and
    used as justification for Mr. Kirkland's response to the FBI's request for
    assistance.  I would suggest we are looking at a case of selective (and
    silly) enforcement.  If the statute were consistently applied as it's being
    applied in this case, how would a police officer be able to ask neighbors
    of a person whose house has been burglarized if the neighbors saw the
    burglar, or had any other information that might be useful?  Of course it's
    legal for police to request an interview with private citizens about
    information they may have as it relates to a crime that has been committed.
    There is no obligation for the citizen to answer the questions, or even to
    grant the interview.  There is no "erosion" of rights here.
    
    It's quite distressing to see all this discussion of "rights", with little
    or no parallel discussion of one's duty, as a citizen, to help with this
    kind of investigation.  Everyone seems eager to claim and protect
    individual rights ( I suspect this is human nature - or, at least American
    human nature), without acknowledging our responsibility, in the face of
    external threat, to close ranks, and defer to the immediate needs of the
    nation. The Bill of Rights is vitally important to us, but so is common
    sense.  I don't see any threat to the Fourth Amendment that would justify
    all this hand-wringing.  While we are busy arguing fine points of law and
    philosophy, there are people (people, by the way, who don't concern
    themselves with anyone's right to Life, Liberty, etc.) working diligently
    to destroy us and our way of life.  I'm a lot more worried about them than
    I am of our government's motives in this matter.  I think we need to deal
    with the problem at hand, and worry about the niceties later.  A newspaper
    columnist summed it up pretty well recently:  "A rattlesnake in the living
    room tends to end all discussion of animal rights."
    
    Best Regards,
    Ron Deming
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                            
                        "webb1973" <webb1973@private>                                                                                       
                        Sent by:                                  To:     "Busby, Richard" <richardb@private>, "'webb1973'"         
                        owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/l        <MSN/webb1973@private>, "Crispin Cowan" <crispin@private>,              
                        ists/crime                                <crime@private>                                                        
                                                                  cc:                                                                       
                                                                  Subject:     RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland       
                        11/23/01 05:35 PM                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                            
    
    
    
    
    Good point. You added an element of which I was not aware. What is the Or.
    Statute of which you speak? I was unaware that there was a statutory
    restriction since I'm not an Oregon resident. With a statute as restrictive
    as you describe, and if local law enforcement is prohibited from
    participating in such interviews (questions), then I have no quarrell or
    criticism of the Chief. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, you hit the
    nail
    on the head about appreciation of having the freedom to debate these
    issues.
    The country is great because of our personal freedoms and our inherent
    right
    to disagree. But there I go again, reverting to patriotic jingoism. Seems I
    have the nasty habit of doing that. My only other comment is that we must
    be
    careful not to place labels on those with whom we disagree, rather than
    engage them in sincere discourse. Arrogance weakens argument and honest
    discourse suffers. Thanks for letting me know about the statute, it makes a
    difference in the way I look at this issue.
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of Busby,
    Richard
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 3:42 PM
    To: 'webb1973'; Crispin Cowan; crime@private
    Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    Doesn't anyone see the irony of even being able to have this deabte? We
    have
    freedom of speech. If we didn't we could not even have this discussion.
    That's what makes the country great. Each of us is entitled to our opinion.
    In Oregon there is also the issue of a statute that indicates that no
    person
    can be questioned unless they are suspected of a crime.
    
    Civil liberties are never taken away in big pieces, thgey are eroded. as
    Thomas Jefferson said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." He was
    talking about the citizenry watching out for what the government is doing.
    
    The fascists in the 30's took away rights slowly and piece by piece. Look
    what happened  there.  I applaud any decision that upholds individual
    rights. I am deeply troubled about the 9/11 attacks and the loss of life,
    but that is, in my own personal opinion, absolutely no reason to take away
    anyone's rights.
    
    Thanks for listening.
    
    
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: webb1973 [mailto:MSN/webb1973@private]
    Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:13 PM
    To: Crispin Cowan; crime@private
    Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    Yeah. Way to go, Chief. I'm sure the families who lost loved ones on 9-11
    will enthusiastically support your politically correct decision. And, if,
    and when one or more of the 200 non-citizens does something to contribute
    to
    more deaths from another terrorist activity, they'll fully understand your
    decision not to ask questions because it was the politically correct thing
    to do. Isn't America great!
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of
    Crispin Cowan
    Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:29 AM
    To: crime@private
    Subject: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland for defending civil
    liberties
    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21PORT.html?ex=1007363873&ei=1&en
    
    =978%20a71dca117098f
    
    Note: the above URL requires free "registration". You can access the
    article using the user-ID/password combo of "cipherpunks/cipherpunks" or
    "wirex/wirex".
    
    Crispin, card-carrying member of the EFF :-)
    
    --
    Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
    Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com
    Security Hardened Linux Distribution:       http://immunix.org
    Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
    



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