I read that the people we wish to question have Visas and not green cards which would not make them residents. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Peters [mailto:adrian.peters@private] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:39 AM To: Ken Emmons Cc: 'Ron_Deming@private'; webb1973; 'crime@private' Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland Actually, green card holders are not considered guests. They are residents. ______________________________ Adrian Peters sEcurITY eNGineEr --qSent(sm) iNC. On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Ken Emmons wrote: > Also remember that the people who our government wish to interview are not > US citizens, they are guests as I understand it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron_Deming@private [mailto:Ron_Deming@private] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:25 PM > To: webb1973 > Cc: crime@private; Crispin Cowan; 'webb1973'; > owner-crime./var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime@private; Busby, Richard > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland > > > > Don't be overly impressed by this statute. It's being widely quoted, and > used as justification for Mr. Kirkland's response to the FBI's request for > assistance. I would suggest we are looking at a case of selective (and > silly) enforcement. If the statute were consistently applied as it's being > applied in this case, how would a police officer be able to ask neighbors > of a person whose house has been burglarized if the neighbors saw the > burglar, or had any other information that might be useful? Of course it's > legal for police to request an interview with private citizens about > information they may have as it relates to a crime that has been committed. > There is no obligation for the citizen to answer the questions, or even to > grant the interview. There is no "erosion" of rights here. > > It's quite distressing to see all this discussion of "rights", with little > or no parallel discussion of one's duty, as a citizen, to help with this > kind of investigation. Everyone seems eager to claim and protect > individual rights ( I suspect this is human nature - or, at least American > human nature), without acknowledging our responsibility, in the face of > external threat, to close ranks, and defer to the immediate needs of the > nation. The Bill of Rights is vitally important to us, but so is common > sense. I don't see any threat to the Fourth Amendment that would justify > all this hand-wringing. While we are busy arguing fine points of law and > philosophy, there are people (people, by the way, who don't concern > themselves with anyone's right to Life, Liberty, etc.) working diligently > to destroy us and our way of life. I'm a lot more worried about them than > I am of our government's motives in this matter. I think we need to deal > with the problem at hand, and worry about the niceties later. A newspaper > columnist summed it up pretty well recently: "A rattlesnake in the living > room tends to end all discussion of animal rights." > > Best Regards, > Ron Deming > > > > > > "webb1973" <webb1973@private> > > Sent by: To: > "Busby, Richard" <richardb@private>, "'webb1973'" > owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/l > <MSN/webb1973@private>, "Crispin Cowan" <crispin@private>, > ists/crime > <crime@private> > cc: > > Subject: > RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland > 11/23/01 05:35 PM > > > > > > > > > > Good point. You added an element of which I was not aware. What is the Or. > Statute of which you speak? I was unaware that there was a statutory > restriction since I'm not an Oregon resident. With a statute as restrictive > as you describe, and if local law enforcement is prohibited from > participating in such interviews (questions), then I have no quarrell or > criticism of the Chief. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, you hit the > nail > on the head about appreciation of having the freedom to debate these > issues. > The country is great because of our personal freedoms and our inherent > right > to disagree. But there I go again, reverting to patriotic jingoism. Seems I > have the nasty habit of doing that. My only other comment is that we must > be > careful not to place labels on those with whom we disagree, rather than > engage them in sincere discourse. Arrogance weakens argument and honest > discourse suffers. Thanks for letting me know about the statute, it makes a > difference in the way I look at this issue. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime > [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of Busby, > Richard > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 3:42 PM > To: 'webb1973'; Crispin Cowan; crime@private > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland > > > Doesn't anyone see the irony of even being able to have this deabte? We > have > freedom of speech. If we didn't we could not even have this discussion. > That's what makes the country great. Each of us is entitled to our opinion. > In Oregon there is also the issue of a statute that indicates that no > person > can be questioned unless they are suspected of a crime. > > Civil liberties are never taken away in big pieces, thgey are eroded. as > Thomas Jefferson said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." He was > talking about the citizenry watching out for what the government is doing. > > The fascists in the 30's took away rights slowly and piece by piece. Look > what happened there. I applaud any decision that upholds individual > rights. I am deeply troubled about the 9/11 attacks and the loss of life, > but that is, in my own personal opinion, absolutely no reason to take away > anyone's rights. > > Thanks for listening. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: webb1973 [mailto:MSN/webb1973@private] > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:13 PM > To: Crispin Cowan; crime@private > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland > > > Yeah. Way to go, Chief. I'm sure the families who lost loved ones on 9-11 > will enthusiastically support your politically correct decision. And, if, > and when one or more of the 200 non-citizens does something to contribute > to > more deaths from another terrorist activity, they'll fully understand your > decision not to ask questions because it was the politically correct thing > to do. Isn't America great! > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime > [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of > Crispin Cowan > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:29 AM > To: crime@private > Subject: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland > > > Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland for defending civil > liberties > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21PORT.html?ex=1007363873&ei=1&en > > =978%20a71dca117098f > > Note: the above URL requires free "registration". You can access the > article using the user-ID/password combo of "cipherpunks/cipherpunks" or > "wirex/wirex". > > Crispin, card-carrying member of the EFF :-) > > -- > Crispin Cowan, Ph.D. > Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com > Security Hardened Linux Distribution: http://immunix.org > Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html > > > > > > >
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