RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland

From: Adrian Peters (adrian.peters@private)
Date: Tue Nov 27 2001 - 09:39:08 PST

  • Next message: Ken Emmons: "RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland"

    Actually, green card holders are not considered guests. They are
    residents.
    
    ______________________________
    Adrian Peters
    
    sEcurITY eNGineEr  --qSent(sm) iNC.
    
    On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Ken Emmons wrote:
    
    > Also remember that the people who our government wish to interview are not
    > US citizens, they are guests as I understand it.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron_Deming@private [mailto:Ron_Deming@private]
    > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:25 PM
    > To: webb1973
    > Cc: crime@private; Crispin Cowan; 'webb1973';
    > owner-crime./var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime@private; Busby, Richard
    > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    >
    >
    >
    > Don't be overly impressed by this statute.  It's being widely quoted, and
    > used as justification for Mr. Kirkland's response to the FBI's request for
    > assistance.  I would suggest we are looking at a case of selective (and
    > silly) enforcement.  If the statute were consistently applied as it's being
    > applied in this case, how would a police officer be able to ask neighbors
    > of a person whose house has been burglarized if the neighbors saw the
    > burglar, or had any other information that might be useful?  Of course it's
    > legal for police to request an interview with private citizens about
    > information they may have as it relates to a crime that has been committed.
    > There is no obligation for the citizen to answer the questions, or even to
    > grant the interview.  There is no "erosion" of rights here.
    >
    > It's quite distressing to see all this discussion of "rights", with little
    > or no parallel discussion of one's duty, as a citizen, to help with this
    > kind of investigation.  Everyone seems eager to claim and protect
    > individual rights ( I suspect this is human nature - or, at least American
    > human nature), without acknowledging our responsibility, in the face of
    > external threat, to close ranks, and defer to the immediate needs of the
    > nation. The Bill of Rights is vitally important to us, but so is common
    > sense.  I don't see any threat to the Fourth Amendment that would justify
    > all this hand-wringing.  While we are busy arguing fine points of law and
    > philosophy, there are people (people, by the way, who don't concern
    > themselves with anyone's right to Life, Liberty, etc.) working diligently
    > to destroy us and our way of life.  I'm a lot more worried about them than
    > I am of our government's motives in this matter.  I think we need to deal
    > with the problem at hand, and worry about the niceties later.  A newspaper
    > columnist summed it up pretty well recently:  "A rattlesnake in the living
    > room tends to end all discussion of animal rights."
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Ron Deming
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >                     "webb1973" <webb1973@private>
    >
    >                     Sent by:                                  To:
    > "Busby, Richard" <richardb@private>, "'webb1973'"
    >                     owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/l
    > <MSN/webb1973@private>, "Crispin Cowan" <crispin@private>,
    >                     ists/crime
    > <crime@private>
    >                                                               cc:
    >
    >                                                               Subject:
    > RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    >                     11/23/01 05:35 PM
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Good point. You added an element of which I was not aware. What is the Or.
    > Statute of which you speak? I was unaware that there was a statutory
    > restriction since I'm not an Oregon resident. With a statute as restrictive
    > as you describe, and if local law enforcement is prohibited from
    > participating in such interviews (questions), then I have no quarrell or
    > criticism of the Chief. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, you hit the
    > nail
    > on the head about appreciation of having the freedom to debate these
    > issues.
    > The country is great because of our personal freedoms and our inherent
    > right
    > to disagree. But there I go again, reverting to patriotic jingoism. Seems I
    > have the nasty habit of doing that. My only other comment is that we must
    > be
    > careful not to place labels on those with whom we disagree, rather than
    > engage them in sincere discourse. Arrogance weakens argument and honest
    > discourse suffers. Thanks for letting me know about the statute, it makes a
    > difference in the way I look at this issue.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    > [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of Busby,
    > Richard
    > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 3:42 PM
    > To: 'webb1973'; Crispin Cowan; crime@private
    > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    >
    >
    > Doesn't anyone see the irony of even being able to have this deabte? We
    > have
    > freedom of speech. If we didn't we could not even have this discussion.
    > That's what makes the country great. Each of us is entitled to our opinion.
    > In Oregon there is also the issue of a statute that indicates that no
    > person
    > can be questioned unless they are suspected of a crime.
    >
    > Civil liberties are never taken away in big pieces, thgey are eroded. as
    > Thomas Jefferson said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." He was
    > talking about the citizenry watching out for what the government is doing.
    >
    > The fascists in the 30's took away rights slowly and piece by piece. Look
    > what happened  there.  I applaud any decision that upholds individual
    > rights. I am deeply troubled about the 9/11 attacks and the loss of life,
    > but that is, in my own personal opinion, absolutely no reason to take away
    > anyone's rights.
    >
    > Thanks for listening.
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: webb1973 [mailto:MSN/webb1973@private]
    > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:13 PM
    > To: Crispin Cowan; crime@private
    > Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    >
    >
    > Yeah. Way to go, Chief. I'm sure the families who lost loved ones on 9-11
    > will enthusiastically support your politically correct decision. And, if,
    > and when one or more of the 200 non-citizens does something to contribute
    > to
    > more deaths from another terrorist activity, they'll fully understand your
    > decision not to ask questions because it was the politically correct thing
    > to do. Isn't America great!
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    > [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of
    > Crispin Cowan
    > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:29 AM
    > To: crime@private
    > Subject: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    >
    >
    > Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland for defending civil
    > liberties
    > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21PORT.html?ex=1007363873&ei=1&en
    >
    > =978%20a71dca117098f
    >
    > Note: the above URL requires free "registration". You can access the
    > article using the user-ID/password combo of "cipherpunks/cipherpunks" or
    > "wirex/wirex".
    >
    > Crispin, card-carrying member of the EFF :-)
    >
    > --
    > Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
    > Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com
    > Security Hardened Linux Distribution:       http://immunix.org
    > Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    



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