FC: President Bush on national ID cards; followups to European use

From: Declan McCullagh (declanat_private)
Date: Thu Sep 27 2001 - 12:29:48 PDT

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    See also:
    
    "President Bush Nixes National ID Card"
    http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/27/1739211&mode=thread
    
    *********
    
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:09:10 +1000
    To: declanat_private
    From: Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarkeat_private>
    Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    
    >Australia had a fight about this some few years ago (the ID card fans lost):
    >http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/
    
    Re the Australia Card scheme, see also:
    
    Just Another Piece of Plastic for your Wallet:  The 'Australia Card' Scheme
    http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/OzCard.html
    Prometheus 5,1 (June 1987). Republished in Computers & Society 18,1 
    (January 1988), together with an important Addendum, published in Computers 
    & Society 18,3 (July 1988)
    
    Re inhabitant registration schemes, see also:
    
    Human Identification in Information Systems:
    Management Challenges and Public Policy Issues
    http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/HumanID.html
    
    Chip-Based ID: Promise and Peril
    http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/IDCards97.html
    
    -- 
    Roger Clarke              http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
    
    Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                     Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
    mailto:Roger.Clarkeat_private  http://www.xamax.com.au/
    
    Visiting Fellow                       Department of Computer Science
    The Australian National University     Canberra  ACT  0200 AUSTRALIA
    Information Sciences Building Room 211       Tel:  +61  2  6125 3666
    
    *********
    
    From: PRGormleyat_private
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:40:55 EDT
    Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    To: declanat_private
    
    Not that I am an advocate of national ID Cards, as a criminal defense
    attorney my knee-jerk response would be against them - but I seriously
    question (bearing in mind my stated position) what we would have left to lose
    in terms of personal liberties.
    
    We're already widely tracked by SSN despite FCRA/GLB acts, we already have
    passports - aren't we already on a national ID system?
    
    - Paul Gormley
    
    *********
    
    From: "Trei, Peter" <ptreiat_private>
    To: "'declanat_private'" <declanat_private>,
             "'josegat_private'"
             <josegat_private>
    Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:43:15 -0400
    
     > Jose M Guardia <josegat_private> writes:
     >
     > Hi,
     >
     > In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe. I'm
     > not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to clarify the
     > fact
     > that it's something "normal" in democratic countries as well.
     >
     > Best
     >
     > Jose
     >
    This is utter nonsense. None of the following Western European
    countries require ID cards: Britain, Ireland, Danmark, Norway,
    Finland, or Sweden.
    
    WE Countries which do require them include Germany, France
    Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain.
    
    Outside, WE, none of the following require them: US, Canada,
    New Zealand, Australia
    
    (none of the lists above are exhaustive)
    
    Source: http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcard_faq.html
    (this is a good source, and shows how some countries
    have successfully prevented governments from imposing ID cards.)
    
    
    If nations are going to insist on ID cards, they should do them
    in an efficient way; tattoo each citizen's name and number on
    their forearm. This method is tried and tested, and found very
    effective: he or she cannot lose, forget, or lie about their ID.
    
    Peter Trei
    
    *********
    
    From: Puzzleelementat_private
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:44:16 EDT
    Subject: Fwd: National ID card - response from German scientist/web publisher
    To: declanat_private
    
    
    Return-Path: <oliverat_private>
    References: <e5.c97753b.28e0a7abat_private>
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:48:47 +0200
    To: Puzzleelementat_private
    From: "Dre." <oliverat_private>
    Subject: Re: National ID card
    Cc: nancyjoyalvarezat_private, MBottisat_private,
             FloridaDemocratat_private, Csinger7373at_private,
             SGOODMANTVat_private, VINLINEat_private, cseiersenat_private,
             CitizensForLegitimateGovernmentat_private,
             fight-the-rightat_private, fringefolkat_private,
             Dem-FLat_private
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
    X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version)
    
    
    Also sprach Puzzleelementat_private um 11:13 Uhr -0400 am 24.09.2001:
    
    >Matt Drudge writes:
    >http://www.drudgereport.com/id.htm
    >>A proposal for the creation of a national ID card was presented to
    >>President Bush in recent days, top government sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.
    >
    >http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/ellsn092301.htm
    >>``We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint digitized
    >>and embedded in the ID card,'' Ellison said in an interview Friday night
    >>on the evening news of KPIX-TV in San Francisco.
    >>``We need a database behind that, so when you're walking into an airport
    >>and you say that you are Larry Ellison, you take that card and put it in a
    >>reader and you put your thumb down and that system confirms that this is
    >>Larry Ellison,'' he said. [...]
    >>``We're quite willing to provide the software for this absolutely free,''
    >>he said.
    >
    >----
    >
    >(...)
    >
    >Dear Declan,
    >
    >According to Drudge, Larry Ellison is now offering to donate the technology
    >to create a national ID card.  What else would we expect from a firm that
    >was created by the CIA:
    >
    >http://beta.kpix.com/news/scripts/fri5pm.htm#77tz:_Ellison
    >
    >(...)
    
    C'mon my dear American friends, is that your greatest worry?
    
    In Europe, national ID cards are common in every country since at least 50 
    years now, and there have never been any privacy problems. Even not after 
    the computer-readable IDs were introduced some 15 years ago which caused a 
    lot of resistance on sides of privacy advocates.
    
    There is much more privacy-relevant activities going on, let me tell you 
    this as a citizen that has been spied out by you my friends and allies 
    since my birth (Hi Langley! Hi Fort Mead!).
    
    And the security aspect of the IDs? Do you really think a Florida Highway 
    Patrol knows how a true Iowa drivers license looks like? Or a NY cop can 
    tell if he checks an Omaha license?
    
    To base ID'ing on drivers licenses that can be counterfeit by any skillful 
    5th-grader is ridiculous! Together with the fact, that after a move from 
    town A to city B, no-one is required to get registered with the local 
    authorities (as is in Europe), it is nowhere so easy for an extremist / 
    militant / terrorist to become invisible...!
    
    [In Germany, when you move and sign a rent-contract with your new landlord 
    or buy a house, you have to sign a form that your landlord has to forward 
    to the local authorities. You're requested to see the local administration 
    office near you and either apply for a new ID (that lists your residential 
    address) or get an address sticker as a patch for the old ID which then 
    gets an official stamp.
    Of course, that didn't prevent some of the WTC terrorists to rent 
    apartments in Hamburg, simply because they had absolutely no criminal 
    history, but at least the police is able to quickly follow the traces and 
    ID their contacts and helpers...]
    
    BTW, we too have a discussion going on, wether the IDs should include 
    finger prints, as a "unique mean of ID". But I find the argumentation very 
    lame: if anyone can manage to counterfeit those sophisticated ID cards, 
    then including the right fingerprint will certainly be no obstacle.
    But I guess it'll rather be dropped because of the costs to issue new IDs 
    for 110 M Germans or more than a half billion EU-Europeans (Easterners and 
    Russians not counted)
    
    One might have to think this over in the age of biometric-ID'ing coming up, 
    but that's probably beyond the scope of discussion here... (correct me if 
    I'm wrong!)
    
    best regards
    
    Dre.
    
    p.s. beware of the WTC-vote virus that'll wipe out your hard drive! for 
    details, please see the below mentioned web site!
    
    *********
    
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:10:28 +0200
    To: declanat_private
    From: Tor Fosheim <tfosheimat_private>
    Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    
    Declan,
    
    This needs further clarification. Most EU countries have national ID cards 
    - passports - but few demand that their citizens carry them at all times. 
    It is impossible in any modernized nation to get by without som form of 
    identification, but that does not mean that states are imposing them on 
    their citizens or that police can stop any person on the street and demand 
    to see their papers. This is certainly not the case in european nations, 
    with one exception that I know of:
    In France they have enacted laws for immigration (in the mid-nineties i 
    believe), where any person of foreign "appearance" - african or asian - can 
    be asked for their ID at any time. This is the only law I know of that 
    demands any part of the populace to carry ID cards and produce them to 
    authorities, and it was not without protest that it came to life.
    
    In Britain they have been debating national ID cards for ages, and there 
    seems to be a consensus against them. It remains to be seen wether events 
    of late will change that, but it just might.
    
    So, there seems to be some confusion about ID-papers and the laws that 
    govern them. We all have ID papers, but not the laws that allow them to be 
    checked by police unless they have a court order, suspiscion of a crime or 
    something similar.
    
    In any case, no european country has anything even close to Ellisons 
    proposed smart-cards with fingerprints or DNA strings programmed into them 
    that can be checked against a national database. It is highly unlikely that 
    it will ever happen either. So is a common EU ID-card, at least for next 
    ten years or so.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tor Fosheim,
    Oslo
    
    *********
    
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:50:12 +0100
    To: declanat_private, Jose M Guardia <josegat_private>
    From: Tim Dedopulos <timat_private>
    Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    
    Hi Declan, Jose
    
    >In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe. I'm 
    >not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to clarify the 
    >fact that it's something "normal" in democratic countries as well.
    
    ... except for the UK. At least, until now. As this link shows,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1559000/1559245.stm
    the idea isn't going down too well, but the government's majority in parliament
    is huge, and there's no stopping it. It has been suggested that UK ID cards
    would include photo, current address, date of birth, SSN, and, strangely,
    details of entitlement to social security benefits -- so any police officer
    stopping a Brit in the street would immediately be able to see whether
    he was on Social or not, which seems likely to be used to make
    prejudicial assessments.
    --
                       Imagine there were two of you. Which one would win?
    
                                    timat_private
    
    *********
    
    From: John Armitage <john.armitageat_private>
    To: "'declanat_private'" <declanat_private>
    Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:49:42 +0100
    
    Hi Declan
    Just to correct your last correspondent who seems to believe that ID cards
    are current policy in Europe: They aren't. In fact, there is likely to be
    one hell of a fight over it in the UK. See below for a taste from today's
    Guardian.
    
    John
    =======================================
    Identity cards
    
    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/attacks/story/0,1320,557630,00.html
    
    Un-British or vital? The ID debate
    
    THE GUARDIAN
    
    As introduction becomes more likely, opinions differ on both ethical and
    practical grounds
    
    Alan Travis, home affairs editor
    Tuesday September 25, 2001
    The Guardian
    
    David Blunkett's suggestion that the introduction of compulsory identity
    cards in Britain could be necessary as part of the fight
    against terrorism yesterday stirred a range of criticism - from rightwing
    libertarians who claimed it would be "un-British", to
    those who warned the move would be ineffective and expensive.
    
    However, an opinion poll at the weekend showed that 86% of people supported
    some form of ID card. The government was
    seriously considering their introduction, Mr Blunkett said.
    
    [...]
    
    *********
    
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:52:34 -0400
    From: Tom BOURKE <bourke_tmat_private>
    Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    To: declanat_private
    
    Declan,
    
    There are no identity cards in Ireland or the UK... yet...
    
    Although I suspect the UK will try and bring them in soon... 
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21849.html
    
    Tom
    (From the UK, with his wife from Ireland)
    NJ, USA
    
    *********
    
    From: "Singleton, Norman" <Norman.Singletonat_private>
    To: declanat_private
    Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
    Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:41:47 -0400
    
    >In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe. I'm
    >not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to clarify the fact
    >that it's something "normal" in democratic countries as well.
    
    Another reminder that democratic does not equal free.
    
    *********
    
    
    
    
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