[At least one commentator has complained about Yahoo's switch as an example of how privacy policies can't be trusted. If they can be changed at whim, the argument goes, what good are they? Well, let's think this through. A few points in reply: (a) If people really care about a privacy policy that NEVER EVER changes, they'll patronize only sites that pledge that. But only a few outliers seem to think that way; (b) If having an inflexible this-shalt-not-change privacy policy were a competitive advantage and would draw scads more signups, companies would have a huge incentive to offer it (they don't); (c) It is probably a good thing to have privacy policies that change based on current economic reality. Banner ads no longer pay the bills. If Yahoo could not attempt to recoup costs by changing its privacy policy to permit pseudospam, it may reasonably choose to pull the plug on a service with less potential to make money; (d) if you're that worried about spam, use anti-spam-ware or do some smart Procmailing; both have been around for years. (e) If you don't like Yahoo, leave. There are few stronger ways to show them what you think. Previous message: http://www.politechbot.com/p-03333.html --Declan] --- From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavittat_private> To: declanat_private, politechat_private Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:22:02 -0800 Declan, The point here, is that this is both unethical and bad business - advertisers want access to people who have affirmatively opted-in to receiving promotions and given permission for their information to be exchanged (otherwise, the lists are poison, and produce massive volumes of complaints and hassles), and end users are quite rationally upset by a 180 degree change in policy that was snuck in on the sly. Every mailing list I'm a member of has had at least one posting about this change, and often a discussion associated with it, saying something to the effect of "Yahoo Turns Evil" (a literal quote) or the equivalent. The logical consequence of a breach of trust of this sort is people shifting their lists, falsifying information, and turning options off when they might otherwise have turned them on. Surely no one at Yahoo deliberately set out to create a flood of bad publicity of this sort - they must have just assumed they would get away with this, without the majority of users finding out about it. This should be an object lesson for other companies. Regards, Thomas Leavitt --- Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:07:46 -0800 From: Steven Kaye<box_nineat_private> To: declanat_private Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK Sender: box_nineat_private To be fair, Yahoo did e-mail an announcement to its members, on March 30th (at least, that's when mine arrived). And they've got a decent Privacy Center (http://privacy.yahoo.com/us/), as opposed to just sticking a TrustE logo on their site or hiding relevant information in 6-point Micro-Boston. Steven --- From: "Ethan Ackerman" <eackermaat_private> To: <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:55:28 -0800 Greetings Declan, I agree with the tackiness this shows on Yahoo's part, but would offer an alternate suggestion to remedy it, only partially tongue in cheek. People should use their Yahoo Mail accounts on Yahoo groups, thereby transfering the processor load, mail server load, and disk space load that this spam consumes directly back to the spammer, (or, technically, the "ISP" that authorizes spam.) It's not a perfect solution, and still requires a users attention and time to delete, but there is something inherently satifying about shifting the "market-external" costs of spam back onto the spammer. -Ethan Ethan Ackerman Senior Research Associate, Shidler Center for Law, Commerce & Technology University of Washington School of Law 1100 NE Campus Parkway Seattle, WA 98105 Tel: 206.440.0853/Fax: 206.616.3427 http://www.law.washington.edu/lct/ --- Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:53:51 -0800 From: Brandon Long <blongat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Yahoo, seeking revenue, now defaults to marketing-email-OK Just thought I'd point out that a) Yahoo is in the process of notifying its users (you can't send 250+ million emails over night without using a lot of computer resources and pissing off a lot of ISPs) and b) this has nothing in particular to do with Yahoo Groups, the email address for the spam is part of that preferences page. Personally, I just left it as my Yahoo Mail account, they can spam themselves for all I care, but my Groups mail goes to different accounts. Some articles on this: http://www.msnbc.com/news/731517.asp?0si=-&cp1=1 http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-871803.html Here is the Yahoo Notification: ************************************************************ This is an administrative email from Yahoo!. To view this message in Spanish please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/e1/privacy/privacy-20.html ************************************************************ Your privacy is very important to us here at Yahoo!. We are sending you this email to let you know that we have updated our Privacy Policy. You can read our updated Privacy Policy by visiting Yahoo!'s comprehensive Privacy Center. http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/ Our commitment to privacy hasn't changed. We believe that you should understand what we do with your information and what choices you have. So why are we revising our Privacy Policy? To streamline it and make changes to address several important topics. In recent years, we have added a Children's Privacy Policy and Privacy Information for users of Yahoo!'s financial products and services, in accordance with requirements of federal legislation. We at Yahoo! have become increasingly aware of questions about how data is treated when a user's safety may be at risk, when fraud or illegal activities may be occurring, or when companies are combined. We feel that the time is right to streamline our privacy policies into a single, comprehensive policy and to address these and other issues in the process. Please take a moment to visit our Privacy Center and read our updated Privacy Policy. http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/ (Note: The Yahooligans! Privacy Policy, for our children's web site, has not changed. Although the format and some parts of the Yahoo! Privacy Policy have been updated, our collection, use, and treatment of information from kids under age 13 remains unchanged.) Yahoo! recognizes that while we've grown and changed, things in your life have probably also changed. You may have a new job, a different email address, a new house, or different interests. We invite you to take this opportunity to update your personal information http://edit.yahoo.com/config/eval_profile? so you can continue to receive content and advertising that is most relevant and interesting to you. Please do not reply to this message. If you have any questions about these changes, please visit our Frequently Asked Questions page. http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/privacy/ Thank you, The Yahoo! Team ************************************************************ This email was sent xxxxxxxat_private for the Yahoo! ID xxxxxxx. If you have questions or concerns, please do not reply to this message. Instead, please visit our FAQ page. http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/privacy/ You may receive more than one copy of this notification if you maintain multiple accounts. ************************************************************ --- X-Originating-IP: [66.81.113.146] From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavittat_private> To: declanat_private Subject: Yahoo Follow Up Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:42:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Declan, I took a look at their privacy policy, and buried in it, is the following statement: "New categories of marketing communications may be added to the Marketing Preferences page from time to time. Users who visit this page can opt out of receiving future marketing communications from these new categories or they can unsubscribe by following instructions contained in the messages they receive." Note the words "opt-out" ... in other words, the way Yahoo has set things up, you need to constantly go back to this page and click "No" in order to avoid receiving marketing crap, even if you've already done it a dozen times before. Regards, Thomas Leavitt --- From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavittat_private> To: declanat_private Subject: Huge Yahoo Privacy Badness - you address and phone for sale!!! Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:34:16 -0800 Declan, I saw the posting below in a Yahoo Group I subscribe to, and when I actually followed the instructions, I found it was even worse than I expected... not only did Yahoo default my options for categories of email marketing to "Yes", but they also defaulted my options for Postal and Phone solicitation to "Yes"!!! Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:33:53 -0800 From: [a friend] Subject: Yahoo Spam Alert Yahoo has apparently made a sneaky change to everybody's "Marketing Preferences," changing all their "No's" to "Yes," the result of which will be a load of spam. To change it back: Go to Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/) and sign in. Go to My Groups and click on Account Info, verify your password if it asks you to, and your Yahoo ID card comes up. Click on 'Edit your Marketing Preferences' and change all those Yes's back to No's. Click Save Changes. [Thanks to MattCookat_private for telling me about his.] *** Now, I certainly won't claim I've read Yahoo's privacy policy in detail, but I know for damn sure that I was never given the option to say "Yes" to Postal and Phone solicitations! In point of fact, I've specifically made an effort to keep my DMA opt-out current, as my postal box fills up rapidly enough as it is with charitable solicitations... There is no way that Yahoo can legitimately say any of these messages are "opt-in"; in point of fact, the only time they've asked me, I've said "NO". This was reflected in the fact that they did have my "third party" email option set to "No". How they can translate that into, "Yes, I want you to spam me by email, postal service and telephone till the cows come home", I don't understand. I run a lot of groups on Yahoo, and I'm constantly asked about Yahoo's privacy policies and membership agreements... up to now, I've said, "Yes, they're pretty lame, but the convenience is worth it." Now, I'm not so sure - email spam from a site like Yahoo is relatively easy to get rid of (worst case, you can always just change your email address), but once your address and phone number get out, you can't really change them. Regards, Thomas Leavitt -- Thomas Leavitt -- thomasleavittat_private; ICQ #16455919 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Politech dinner in SF on 4/16: http://www.politechbot.com/events/cfp2002/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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