[I'm amazed and impressed by the outpouring of support that my previous message on the Fleishman-Hillard PR firm generated (http://www.politechbot.com/p-03367.html). Thanks, everyone. One note: It is true that network admin Chuck Magner <magnercat_private> is, charitably, a twit. And it is ironic that a puportedly tech-savvy PR firm ("word of mouth makes the difference!") would display such a dazzling lack of clue. But it is not fair to condemn everyone at Fleishman-Hillard for Chuck's we-will-blackhole-you threat. --Declan] --- Subject: RE: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:26:35 -0500 From: "Paul Higgins" <pahigginsat_private> To: <declanat_private> Cc: <magnercat_private>, <mccluremat_private> Declan: Nice one about Jimmy Fallon. Here's two little words I always like to pass on to weenies who think they can push their weight around because they work at "the leading" anything: "Bite me." I think those two little words aptly express my sentiments towards Fleishman-Hillard, and specifically the pond-scum you tangled with, quite nicely. Just think how I'm going to feel the next time something produced by Fleishman-Hillard crosses my desk. Can you say, "I don't care who you are, if FH produced it we don't want it?" Sure you can. Sheesh, you'd think employees at a public relations firm, of all things, would know better ... Paul Higgins Madison, Wisconsin --- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Ben Polen <benpolenat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech To: declanat_private Cc: magnercat_private, mccluremat_private, cravenlat_private, Mcclurem2at_private, boudreamat_private, mooneyrat_private Declan, As a fellow journalist, I am shocked (but, sadly, not surprised) that in this information age a PR rep would actually want to cut themself off from the wonderful technology news resource that is Politech! How sad! How self-destructive! How stupid! Spam is unrequested bulk email. Politech is explicitly requested email and easily unsubscribed from. I mean, yeah changing your email address can come back to bite you but thats part of the trade-off. So Politech is not spam. I'm sure even the Net.Fuzz will agree on this one! I shouldn't even mention the emails I get from random flacks--but I will! I mean, all I have to do is give my email to one pr rep at one trade show and I know I am going to be spammed from here to eternity. And I end up on other lists--likely the same PR firm plugging for other tech clients (popping my name on their general tech contact list, no doubt) telling me about product announcements, offering interviews, etc... And all this so that some executive could email me a quote or a letter within the next few hours. So, having been the receipient of many PR spams, I think it is quite laughable that a PR firm is on the other end! (Or, at least, perceivably so!) Prediction: Chuck (if he truly is blocking Politech from going to all of the firms' email accounts) will be fired before the week is over, and Politech will flow freely for all flacks! <joke>Chuck, I didn't realize spam left such a bitter taste!</joke> -Ben Polen --- From: "Mark Northern" <mnorthern@nh-chatt.com> To: <declanat_private> Subject: F-H website Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:07:52 -0400 Organization: New Horizons -- Chattanooga Declan: Have you looked at the Fleishman-Hillard website lately? "Grassroots marketing" "Word-of-mouth makes the difference" A pompous geek wanna-be in their IT department has greatly diminished their "brand" with his moronic actions. Not... smart. Word-of-mouth made the difference. As a former journalist who "sold out" into PR and then transitioned into the IT arena, I find this both sad and strangely comical. Best Regards, Mark _______________________________ Mark Northern Host "Hard Drive" -- WGOW-FM -- Chattanooga 423.892.3085 x114 --- From: "Geoff Gariepy" <geoff_gariepyat_private> To: <magnercat_private> Subject: Politech Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:06:28 -0400 Jeez, buy a clue. Declan's email list isn't hardly spam. In fact, it's probably one of the top 3 technical listservs on the planet. Maybe if you read it you wouldn't just be a frustrated sysadmin. There's gotta be 1000s of IT professionals on his list, plus government policy makers, Wired magazine subscribers, etc. I hope you get your head out of the sand--and soon. Otherwise, you're going to be the laughingstock of the net.spam cops. Not to mention everyone else. I'd start by apologizing to Declan now, if I were you. --Geoff --- To: declanat_private cc: politechat_private Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409232314.00a69050at_private> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 15:25:40 -0700 From: John Gilmore <gnuat_private> I'd offer you congratulations, Declan, except that you haven't actually been thrown off the Internet yet by the anti-spammers. They came for me. You'll complain when they come for you, but nobody will be able to hear you. John RIP http://www.toad.com, censored by virulent Verio anti-spammers --- From: "Jones, Greg" To: "'declanat_private'" <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Poli tech Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:46:52 -0400 I will be very interested to see how many other F-H employees respond to protest the embargo of Politech. One is tempted to wonder at such virulence from "the 'leading' public relations consultancy in the U.S.". How many Politechnicals got to enjoy this tirade? This can't be good PR for F-H. While Chuck is considering "it an honor and privilige to use all the technology tools available", he might consider starting with spell-check. Please withhold my e-mail address from any repost -- I fear to suffer the wrath of Chuck. You are made of much sterner stuff than I. Greg. --- Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 13:45:09 -0600 From: Kevin Rasmussen <kevinat_private> To: declanat_private Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech That is hilarious. You'd think a PR firm would be more careful when communicating with the media. Right on their home page they tout "Word-of-mouth makes the difference". Perhaps you should have also copied Bill Pendergast (pendergbat_private), the Chairman of their Corporate/Reputation Management group... Thanks for an informative and (occasionally) very entertaining list. Cheers, Kevin --- From: tbetzat_private To: declanat_private, magnercat_private, mccluremat_private, cravenlat_private, Mcclurem2at_private, boudreamat_private, mooneyrat_private, politechat_private Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:36:27 -0400 Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:33, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [On second reading, it's not entirely clear whether Chuck is blocking all > mail from the Well and Politech himself or just encouraging everyone at > Fleishman-Hillard to do so. In any case, it's a sad case of self-appointed, > anti-spam vigilantes run amok... --Declan] No it isn't, Declan; it's just a case of idiots being idiots. No surprise to me that they work for a PR firm... Unfortunately for them, the people who run those blacklists are NOT idiots. They will recognize that these fools are idiots, and will /dev/null their complaints. --- From: "D McOwen" <dmcowenat_private> To: <declanat_private>, <politechat_private> Cc: <magnercat_private>, <mccluremat_private>, <cravenlat_private>, <Mcclurem2at_private>, <boudreamat_private>, <mooneyrat_private> Subject: RE: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:24:55 -0400 Go get em Declan, Interesting propaganda on their part. If their IT Dept created filters to specifically block inbound Politech e-mails, then she shouldn't be getting the so called "junk" through to her e-mail inbox to ever see anyway. What kind of "IT" Dept are they running there? --- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:57:46 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec <rskat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:33:13PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: > [ In any case, it's a sad case of self-appointed, > anti-spam vigilantes run amok... --Declan] Please, no. These aren't anti-spam vigilantes of any stripe. I've forwarded this exchange to the *real* anti-spam folks, who tend to take a dim view of bogus, whiny complaints from people who are either too stupid or too lazy to unsubscribe themselves from mailing lists that they themselves signed up for at some point in the past. I think perhaps fleishman.com should worry less about blocking well.com and more about how many sites are going to block *them* after reading this idiocy. ---Rsk --- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:45:55 -0500 To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech From: harmoneyat_private (Patty L Langasek) On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:33:13PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Cc: "Mcclure, Marna" <mccluremat_private>, "Craven, Liz" > ><cravenlat_private> > >At 12:51 PM 4/9/2002 -0500, Magner, Chuck wrote: > >>Considering your inability to comprehend the amount of inconvenience you > >>cause not only our users at the desktop by having to spend valuable work > >>time deleting your unsolicited emails, but also our IT department by > >>having to create filters to eliminate your junk. I have advised Ms > >>Mcclure and everybody else in our company to report all unsolicted emails > >>from you and those originating from well.com to; I get the feeling that Mister Magner didn't take the time to actually *research* what this list is, how one gets messages from this list, or possibly has even looked at any of the messages sent to 'Ms Mcclure'. I also get the feeling that 'Ms Mcclure' isn't exactly the kind of person who knows how to make responsible use of Internet resources (such as actually *reading* a webpage or attempting to get information before running to someone she views as a guru and whining at them to 'make it work' - gah, users annoy me). Though, you know. I have to express amusement at their website 'Grassroots Marketing - Word-of-mouth makes the difference', and further into their site: 'Observing the highest ethical and professional standards' (Overview page, link is off the homepage). I don't consider Ms. Magner's correspondence in the least professional, but, perhaps this is how Fleishman Hillard (which I'm sure is trademarked, for the record) treats and defines professionalism. [snip - long, unncessary list of anti-spam sites] > >>We will be notifying the business manager at Well: bizmgrat_private and > >>the technical contact dnsat_private of your unsolicited spam activities. > >>As well as sending snail mail to their address at; Ooooh. He can do a 'whois'. Impressive. I still wonder if he bothered looking at Ms McClure's email before taking this rather abrasive approach. > >> I consider it an honor and privilige to use all the technology tools > >>available at making you go away, I will be contacting you personally as > >>soon as possible. Dear lord. This guy is sounding like the reverse of Bernard Shifman (let me know if hardcore anti-spam activists *coughcoughCHUCKcoughcough* are ignorant enough to not have heard of this spamming issue, or requires a lesson in how to use Google). As always, I appreciate all information I get from Politech (since, well, I *did* subscribe to the list personally) and all the hardwork you put into this list. --------------------------------------------------------- Patty Langasek harmoneyat_private --- X-What: Goes Around Comes Around Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 15:47:46 -0700 To: Mcclurem2at_private, Mccluremat_private, postmasterat_private, abuseat_private, administratorat_private, thamkat_private, licharat_private From: "Postmasterat_private" <Postmasterat_private> Subject: NOTICE: fleishman.com BANNED from IMMUNE.COM and EMISSARY.NET Cc: "Postmasterat_private" <Postmasterat_private>, Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> To Whom It May Concern, In reference to "Mcclure, Marna" and the abuse and mis-characterization by fleishman.com employees of the opt-in, confirmed, superb mailing list Politech: Because of the ignorant and arrogant way that fleishman.com staff fail to handle their own clerical work (closing that which they opened and confirmed), no accounts are now accepted from fleishman.com for any self-serve resources or services available from both IMMUNE.COM and EMISSARY.NET A written, formal apology to Declan McCullagh is appropriate, if fleishman.com wishes to be un banned. -- "Postmasterat_private" <Postmasterat_private> --- Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:06:35 -0400 From: "SIXIT Consulting" <no.spamat_private> To: declanat_private Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech Feel free to post this Declan. Robert~ *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >>At 12:51 PM 4/9/2002 -0500, Magner, Chuck wrote: >> >>>Considering your inability to comprehend the amount of inconvenience you >>>cause Hola Chuck, Methinks it is an even bigger inconvenience to Declan, who receives probably in the neighborhood of several HUNDRED emails a day *AND* has a full-time career as a journalist, who then has to stop whatever important thing he's currently doing and answer an email from someone who can't remember a simple address change! You are obviously good at looking at email headers, so what was the difficulty in determining which address of Ms. McClure's was receiving the email? This should have been child's play for you. >time deleting your unsolicited emails, but also our IT department by >having to create filters to eliminate your junk. I have advised Ms >Mcclure and everybody else in our company to report all unsolicted emails >from you and those originating from well.com to; Erm, unsolicited means, in essence, *unrequested*. However, the ONLY way to get these emails is to *request* them. Please Chuck, explain to us through logical conclusions how requested email is unsolicited? >nofalsenegatives.stopspam.samspade.org blacklist >http://mail-abuse.org >Dorkslayers Zero Tolerance List http://www.dorkslayers.com/ >Spam Prevention Early Warning System http://www.spews.org/ >Spamhaus Block List http://www.spamhaus.org/ Except these folks are well aware (or should be) of Declan's stance on spam, freedom, and privacy. Your complaints will likely be greeted with amusement. Your reputation, unfortunately, will be the ultimate victim of your rampage. It's likely the folks at these good institutions will classify you as an uninformed newbie picking the wrong battles with the wrong weapons. So much for your credence after that. >We will be notifying the business manager at Well: bizmgrat_private and [snip] I'm sure the appropriate persons at well.com and salon.com will also appreciate your logical explanation on how requested email is unsolicited. You know Chuck, I *love* killing spammers too. However, you need to realize that sometimes to resolve a conflict a little diplomacy is required and not the whole 7th fleet. Perhaps you will learn this soon.... Sincerely, Robert Reese~ --- From: Charlie Oriez <coriezat_private> Organization: Lumber Cartel [tinlc] To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private>, politechat_private Subject: Re: FC: Fleishman-Hillard PR firm blocks all mail from well.com, Politech Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:25:57 -0600 Cc: magnercat_private On Wednesday 10 April 2002 00:33, Declan McCullagh gave up the right to remain silent by saying: (cc's snipped) > >> to eliminate your junk. I have advised Ms Mcclure and everybody > >> else in our company to report all unsolicted emails from you and > >> those originating from well.com to; > >> > >>spamcop.net Actually, any spam should be reported to spamcop as the easy way to do it. Of course, if someone reports something as spam that isn't spam, they get their account terminated and lose access to the service. Why just politech and well though? And does fleishman actually use spamcop as a dnsbl? 216.110.36.217 shows no spam reported dating back to early Feb. > >> > >>nofalsenegatives.stopspam.samspade.org blacklist Interesting. According to Steve at blighty.com, who runs Sam Spade, that isnt a blacklist and is not used to bounce mail. It's a query tool for checking other lists. > >> > >>http://mail-abuse.org Requires a carefully documented nomination, including documentation of direct contact. Documentation that politechbot is confirmed optin, which it is, will end the issue. > >> > >>Dorkslayers Zero Tolerance List http://www.dorkslayers.com/ "It is our intention to never list IP addresses which have any of the following characteristics: a physical location within the United States of America (USA) a mailserver that has been secured against third-party email relay contained within a netblock from our spite list" hmm. Dorkslayers is an open relay database. An accusation that 216.110.36.217 is an open relay located in a foreign country should be backed up by evidence. I just ran the 17 standard relay tests available at abuse.net: Relay test result All tests performed, no relays accepted. In other words, complaints to Dorkslayers would be without merit. > >> > >>Spam Prevention Early Warning System http://www.spews.org/ They dont take nominations, nor are there publicly available email addresses to send nominations to. If you send mail to spews, the person sending the mail is assumed to be the spammer, and gets listed, if anyone does. But first you have to find their spam trap addresses in order to communicate with them, and that is easier said than done. Postmaster and the other obvious role addresses won't work <Obdisclaimer>I am not SPEWS, don't know who is, and think Irkutsk is way too cold for me to take the job if offered. I'd buy them a beer if I knew who they were though.</Obdisclaimer> > >> > >>Spamhaus Block List http://www.spamhaus.org/ Spamhaus exists solely to maintain a Spam Support Services Tracking Database. I hope they can back up the accusation that you're running spam support services (eg - selling spamware). This is a fairly egregious accusation, and listing spamhaus as a suitable place to complain qualifies as such an accusation. I'd want to blackhole you myself if it is true. Of course, if they make that claim without it being true, we're again in the mode of wondering how honest other communcations from FH are. > >> > >>We will be notifying the business manager at Well: > >> bizmgrat_private and the technical contact dnsat_private of your > >> unsolicited spam activities. As well as sending snail mail to > >> their address at; > >> > >> 22 Fourth Street, 16th Floor > >> San Francisco, CA 94103 but not their abuse addresses. Interesting. > >> > >> > >> I consider it an honor and privilige to use all the technology > >> tools available at making you go away, I will be contacting you > >> personally as soon as possible. > >> As in: # kooks :0D * ^From:.*fleishman.com /dev/null It took minutes if not seconds to create. So two issues: The fleishman admin has accused well of running an open relay (dorkslayers) and has accused politech.com of providing spam support services (spamhaus). My tests say the open relay accusation is false. I saw no links on your site or other evidence indicating that you offer spam support services. He should produce evidence of both or apologize, or his boss should for him. Anyone can refuse any mail they want - it's their server. Probably wouldn't hurt to delete all FH addresses from your list, and of course refuse all mail in your direction as well. The bounce message for their blocked mail can refer questions to the appropriate internal person. -- Charles Oriez coriezat_private 39 34' 34.4"N / 105 00' 06.3"W --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Politech dinner in SF on 4/16: http://www.politechbot.com/events/cfp2002/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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