[I'd be happy to forward a response from the RIAA, per my usual policy.
--Declan]
---
From: "James Lucier" <vze29z9kat_private>
To: <declanat_private>
Subject: Hilary Rosen voted down more than 3 to 1 at Oxford Union
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:30:01 -0500
Hi Declan:
I thought I would submit this to your attention. As a former Chairman and
Convenor of the World Universities Debating Championship, a international
parliamentary debate tourney which, at least in my day, Oxford, the
University of Sydney, and the University of Glasgow routinely won in
rotation, I have to say these things are about style and presentation than
substance most of the time. Thus the Scots (with kilts and dirks in their
stockings) and the Australians (outrageous accents and beers in hand)
tended to have unfair advantages. In the case of Oxford, one has to ask
whether they will refuse to fight for king and country next. I doubt this
particular debate settles the issue, but it must have been fun for all
concerned.
Jim Lucier
<http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/>http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/
Oxford Union Debate - This House believes that "the free music mentality is
a threat to the future of music."
This was a debate held at the <http://www.oxford-union.org/>Oxford Union on
Thursday 24th October. For the speakers, see the
<http://www.oxford-union.org/mod.php?mod=calendar&op=show_event&event_id=10>debate
page.
Final vote was:
Ayes - 72
Noes - 256
----------
Under the watchful eye of Dave Green from <http://www.ntk.net/>NTK, several
of us met up in the Lamb & Flag before the debate, and trooped in together.
Impressively, we had about as many members as non, so getting everyone in
wasn't nearly as tough as we'd expected it to be. Since we arrived about
8pm, we sat through a rather confusing debate, where it seemed that neither
the (very quiet) chair or the speakers quite knew which side they were
arguing for... Then, about 8:40 the speakers for the main debate wandered in.
The proposition had Nick Pacheco (Christchurch College), Hilary Rosen
(RIAA), Chris Wright (Chrysalis) and Jay Berman (IFPI). The opposition had
Will Harris (Keble College), Nick King (Nielsen Entertainment), Doug D'Arcy
(Chrysalis) and Ronnie Gurr (various). (A few union members also spoke for
both sides during the floor debate.)
I won't endeavour to recount the entire debate, just some of my thoughts on
it and what I thought were some of the highlights. The Union made a video
recording of the entire thing, which may or may not eventually get put
online (you could try asking the <mailto:david.watsonat_private>Union
President, David Watson about it, I suspect the more requests they get the
more like it is to get online). <http://www.davegreen.co.uk/>Dave Green
also made a tape recording of the event, that will probably make it online
soonish, provided the quality is good enough.
----------
So, some of the more memorable bits included:
* Hilary Rosen saying "Actually, no copy protected CDs have been
released in the US"
(<http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/10/20/2337202&mode=thread&tid=141>
really? <http://www.fatchucks.com/z3.cd.html>really?)
* Hilary Rosen asks "Put up your hand if you download and burn music"
(most hands go up). She then asks "Keep you hand up if you buy more music
because of it" (many stay up). She gets worried and immediately asks some
different and confusing set of people to put their hands up, causing
everyone to look miffed, and everyone putting their hand down)
* Hilary Rosen nodding like a pigeon for most of the time
* Every opposition speaker getting at least one impromptu applause
during their speeches, only one proposition speaker getting one (and that
was for taking the piss out of a union hack)
* The leader of the opposition appearing to have read
<http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/>http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/
based on many of his comments (i.e. he said many of the things that were on
the leaflets we had to hand out)
* One of the proposition reading out several verses of "Thank you for
the music" by Abba. We got the point after the first verse, but we then
stated to wonder if he had permission from the rights holder, or was he
simply claiming "fair use"?
* The proposition trying to defend the vast profits they make on many
CDs sales, and trying to make themselves look philanthropic about many of
the artists they take on
* The proposition keep claiming "you can't have/make music without the
music industry" and then not letting anyone speak to point out the
inaccuracy of this
* Everyone (yup, both sides, but more so the opposition) laying into
the likes of Pop Stars, Pop Idols etc
* The quality of the examples/figures etc given by both sides. The
proposition kept pulling out these massive numbers on falling sales, the
opposition pointed out which areas were falling and which were growing
(quite insightful, and hardly surprising).
* One of the opposition speakers telling us about his recent music
shopping experiences (including how he'd been in HMV buying a couple of
CDs, and the people in front of him in the queue who were buying several
CDs were also talking about how to download various P2P clients).
* One of the proposition giving figures on the Linkin Park album
(sales, downloads etc), the leader of the opposition saying he'd personally
downloaded it and then gone out and bought it, asking for the figures of
how many people who'd downloaded it had bought it, and being told "I have
no figures, and nor do you" by the proposition, nicely ignoring the fact
that they both then had a figure showing that 100% of people surveyed there
who'd downloaded had also bought...
* Jay Berman probably being the best proposition speaker, and coming
out with the insightful "Each generation has had their own music. For your
generation it's filesharing. And I think thats a pretty terrible thing"
* Ronnie Gurr being good once he'd warmed up (Martin has more on him on
<http://www.mba-experience.com/>his page)
* The votes (a massive landslide for the opposition, with 72 Ayes to
256 Noes)
* Hilary Rosen almost voting against the motion (you vote by walking
out the correct door, and she wasn't paying any attention)
*
<http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/full/C0889.jpg>Alastair's
photo (<http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/>the others) of Hilary
Rosen talking to someone wearing a
<http://www.geekstyle.co.uk/ntkmart.cgi#Corrupt>Corrupt Audio T-Shirt, and
appearing to be reading it.
* Us clapping and cheering Hilary Rosen and friends as they left, and
them appearing not to get the sarcasm (this being a scant 20 minutes after
we were giving <http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/supp/>fliers to everyone
leaving the debate
* Discovering that one of our number was a Dave Green on TV fan, while
queueing up for Kebabs.
Oh, and a few other things that currently escape me. I might write them
here later...
----------
Links of some possible relevance
* <http://www.oxford-union.org/>The Oxford Union
*
<http://www.oxford-union.org/mod.php?mod=calendar&op=show_event&event_id=10>Union
page on the debate
* <http://www.mba-experience.com/>Martin Llloyd's page on the debate
* <http://alumni.ox.compsoc.net/~agk/photos/CDR/>Alastair's photos from
the debate
----------
Last modified: Sunday, 27-Oct-2002 00:53:43 BST
Abuse / comments / thoughts to
<mailto:nickat_private>nickat_private
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