Kudos to Dean Anderson for having the courage to host a site that he personally disagrees with. (Like Dean, I disagree with Neal Horsley's views on abortion but defend Neal's right to express them.) To respond to the points below, as for Verio, they own their own network: They have the right to set whatever terms of service they believe are reasonable, and their customers have the right to walk away if the contractual arrangements become too restrictive. But Verio's actions may still set a bad example. As a general rule, it seems better for companies that merely offer Internet connectivity to take a laissez-faire approach. Giving in to one set of activists (and you can be sure pro-choice activists were agitating for this) means you have less credibility if you hope to refuse the next set when they show up with their own complaints. See, for instance, the controversial First Church of Christ, Abortionist (which was an officially-recognized student organization at Carnegie Mellon University): http://web.archive.org/web/19990430035044/http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/org/fcca/homepage.htm l As of 6 pm ET, the abortioncams.com and other sites are still accessible. -Declan --- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:37:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson <deanat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> cc: politechat_private, <nhorsleyat_private> Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0at_private> I presume you support Verio's right to pull anything they want, as you have said that ISP's can block whatever email messages they want, despite contrary legislation. This case is clearer, though. Since Verio is (essentially) canceling the account, and telling Mr. Horsley that they are going to do that. By contrast, ISP's willfully blocking legitimate mail never tell their customers they are doing that, and never give advance notice so they can make other arrangements. If Mr. Horsley needs web service, I will be happy to provide it to him. Note that I don't agree with his views--Just his right to have them and to express them. Dean Anderson CEO Av8 Internet, Inc --- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:45:14 -0700 From: Mac Hayes <mach37at_private> Organization: Land of Promise To: declanat_private Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites Declan McCullagh wrote: > ... > Also Please keep this matter in prayer ... > > Neal Horsley > http://www.christiangallery.com Horsley is the kind of person that gives "freedom of speech" a bad name. His web site is the "best" example of hate-mongering, anti-Christian, violence promoting fanaticism I've seen. I will definitely keep the matter of Neal Horsley "in prayer" but not in the way he wants. Mac Hayes --- X-Authentication-Warning: libra.sfsu.edu: strejo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Sonya Trejo <strejoat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0at_private> What does this have to do with Planned Parenthood, the government, or censorhip? Verio has simply informed him that he is violationg the TOS, and it is their right to choose whom to do business with. This is exactly how it's supposed to work. In a free country, we choose our business relations. Sonya --- Reply-To: "Mike Liveright" <mllat_private> From: "Mike Liveright" <mllat_private> To: <supportat_private> Cc: <declanat_private> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708123659.043406d0at_private> Subject: Re: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:32:21 -0700 Organization: WeMatter.com Please Email me relative to which policy this user was in violation of... (which section of: http://verio.com/company/policies/aup.cfm ) On first reading, your policies do seem reasonable, but this seems to be a possible case where you are removing this user based on political positions rather than objective considerations. Though I am opposed to the proposals of Horsley, I think it is a bad policy for him to be un-fairly censored... I would like to know more about the exact policy that Verio feels he is violating and am here by requesting that they send me, and I will forward it if I get it, information. I agree that a specific ISP may have "reasonable" policies that go beyond the law for restricting their users, e.g. NO SPAM, NO OBSENITY, NO perceived PORNOGRAPHY, but it is important that there be other ISP's who will host the sites that one objects to. It is also important that an ISP has a reasonable policy and allows a user to move to another site in an orderly fashion. Mike Liveright 260 Byron Street. mllat_private Palo Alto, CA 94301 http://www.WeMatter.com (650) 323-2028 --- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:21:33 -0400 From: Tom Maguire <tmiat_private> Reply-To: tmiat_private X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja,ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: declanat_private CC: politechat_private, nhorsleyat_private Subject: Re: FC: "Abortion Abolishionist" given 5 pm deadline to delete websites The TOS agreements are draconian in nature. They can kick you off for most any reason. The fact that someone selected these particular items does raise the civil issue of discrimination / free speech and you can parade wounded but it detracts from your primary goal. You must take a sideview of the organization. While there may be competent legal talent somewhere near the top writing boilerplate, the $12.00/hr. people in the trenches are dealing with issues like this. In the world of splitting legal hairs, since it did not come from a director or officer, you got nuttin'. I cannot imagine that the same ISPs that carry snuff, porno and con schemes would object to your content. You can easily go off shore or buy a port at a nap. I can't imagine your people not knowing this. Walk around the things you cannot easily change. Stay on point. In their defense, you have to see some of the new regulations as to what can and cannot be transmitted into certain areas. The ISP has the deep pockets that are easy to tap and risks the ability to access or do business within the violated territory. It is doubtful that you will end abortion. A better short-term goal might be to educate people about how blurred the decision making process can be during a sexual encounter, abortion's lifelong effect on the woman's body and future childbearing, how abortion effects relationships and how the ex-father feels, in an effort to reduce the use of abortion as birth control or worse yet, revenge. The current status, IMHO, is a result of society leaving no room for the pregnant teenager, single mother etc. Instead of reaching out to demystify human behavior and destigmatize acting human our spiritual leaders are launching thunderbolts from the pulpit to strike down the sinners. God has a sense of humor and the college of cardinals are presently making worldwide asses of themselves of the subject of pedophile clergy. When I studied Theology under the great Jesuit scholar, Fr. James DeGaccomo, he passed on what I feel is a sound religious theory. There is basically no difference in religions. What God is going to judge you on is your treatment of others. Not prayers, beatitudes or jihad. Later that same day I had the disgusting experience of my class being paraded naked around the school's pool while being observed by an unnamed lay teacher, merrily jingling the coins in his pocket while scanning groins. This experience cost my parents more than their mortgage in tuition alone. The moral of this story is, despite the superb academic resources like Fr. JD, who is a total class act and above reproach, the overall experience was awful because the school tolerated this particular lay teacher's behavior. The same thing applies to unwanted pregnancy. If we are not supportive and accepting to women who wind up this way while simultaneously trying to keep everyone in the dark about how sex is going to effect them, you are just not being decent. If you are using unrestricted abortion for yourself or as a platform to get elected or even to keep someone else from being elected, you are simply not being decent. Certainly not to the expecting parents one of whom is attached to that precious fetus. We all know what happens to (him/her). Religious extremism isn't working that well anywhere. Get to the problems where people are suffering and buy a little afterlife insurance. Tom Maguire TMI Engineering ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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