('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is) In-Reply-To: <C98621D17B337E4284E03A4BAA76F6A5E2D72Cat_private> I listen to many folks talking about the lack of employment, just how tight the market really is and how they don't want to move for employment. Let's talk reality. I currently work for SAIC and want the folks reading this list to just take one minute, well maybe two, to look at www.saic.com. We currently have a multitude of positions. Now let's talk some sense. As a former recruiter, outplacement counselor and an industry jack of all trades I believe that I have a pretty good handle on what is going on. First. The jobs are there, but all to often the client does not want to move to the job. Well in a tight market, if an individual is hanging on to a location, then employment is NOT his or her prime goal. The I want it "all" idea is gone. An individual can be successful, but attitude keeps many down. Secondly, I need to make mega bucks $$$$$$. Well who doesn't. However, reaching for the top can be hazardous. Typically positions have a salary range associated with them. Take for example a range from 55k to 90k. Sounds to broad? Well it's not. So here I sit with a fairly standard skill set that the employer is looking for. What salary should I be looking at? About 75k - tops! Why? Well the 90k is the absolute top. If you get that you become a couple of things. One is the first target of a layoff. Which is better - 75k for 4 years or 90k for 2? Do the math. Additionally, with the 90k the employer has no headroom to work with the employee. Raises, schooling, seminars, etc. The employer is far less inclined to give any of these. At 75k there is room for the employee to grow both financially and with education paid by the company. You suddenly become an employee that the company sees as wanting to grow with the company, not bleed it dry. Well this is the long and short of my thoughts and as usual worth about 2 cents. I wish everyone on this list the best and folks - take a good long look at SAIC. Greg >Received: (qmail 10925 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 04:14:03 -0000 >Received: from outgoing3.securityfocus.com (HELO outgoing.securityfocus.com) (66.38.151.27) > by mail.securityfocus.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 04:14:03 -0000 >Received: from lists.securityfocus.com (lists.securityfocus.com [66.38.151.19]) > by outgoing.securityfocus.com (Postfix) with QMQP > id 5DEF0A30C8; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:15:59 -0600 (MDT) >Mailing-List: contact securityjobs-helpat_private; run by ezmlm >Precedence: bulk >List-Id: <securityjobs.list-id.securityfocus.com> >List-Post: <mailto:securityjobsat_private> >List-Help: <mailto:securityjobs-helpat_private> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:securityjobs-unsubscribeat_private> >List-Subscribe: <mailto:securityjobs-subscribeat_private> >Delivered-To: mailing list securityjobsat_private >Delivered-To: moderator for securityjobsat_private >Received: (qmail 21239 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 23:59:52 -0000 >Message-ID: <C98621D17B337E4284E03A4BAA76F6A5E2D72Cat_private> >From: "Nedunuri,Srinivas" <srinivas.nedunuriat_private> >To: 'Michael Soukup' <msoukupat_private>, > securityjobsat_private >Subject: RE: Status Of The IT Talent Pool >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:04:24 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > >My personal take on this is that the whole idea of whether or not foreign >workers are "stealing jobs" is a red herring. > >The real problem is the lack of any control over who can call themselves a >software engineer, regardless of where they are from. Just about anyone can >pick up a copy of Learn Java in 21 Days (or Learn Security in 21 Days in >this case!) and place "Java programmer" or "experienced in security" on >their resume. Of course, during the .com boom days this was actively >encouraged, esp by employers wailing about how much they were having to pay >for talented developers. Once the .coms became .bombs, you had all these >Java "programmers" pounding the streets looking for work > >Contrast the situation with the legal profession. They don't allow any old >Joe Shmoe to hang up a shingle and call themselves lawyers. Through exams, >intake control, and partnerships they control the supply of lawyers. As a >result, they have been somewhat affected by the downturn (esp those lawyers >that specialized in patent law), but they certainly haven't seen rates drop >by 50% as we have. > >I was out of work for 6 months and what I was up against was not programmers >from India, Romania or wherever but every old Joe claiming to be a >UML/OO/Java/J2EE/etc expert on their resume. Without any way of >distinguishing the wheat from the chaff it was very difficult for employers >to sort through hundreds of almost identical looking resumes. > >cheers >-sn > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Soukup [mailto:msoukupat_private] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 5:27 PM >> To: securityjobsat_private >> Subject: Re: Status Of The IT Talent Pool >> >> >> Subroto makes some excellent points in his letter. >> >> I recently worked for a major hardware/software corporation >> that imported >> many (hundreds, at least) programmers from India on work >> visas and then paid >> them significantly less than their U.S. citizen counterparts. >> And the Indians >> are happy with this. More than a few go back to India to get >> an advanced >> degree, get married, etc., and the corporation hires them >> back when they're >> ready to return. Most of us citizen workers never seemed to >> mind; the Indians >> are largely talented, hard workers, and worked well with >> everyone else >> (except the Pakistanis, which is another story). >> >> The big issue as I see it is whether or not the Federal >> Government is going >> to reopen the doors again to the practices described in these >> e-mails. The >> Government did so before to please the big corporations and >> the shareholders. >> >> But this was when economic times were much better for the >> computer biz (and >> everyone else), and there seemed to always be a big shortage >> of people with >> the needed skills. The environment has changed considerably now. >> >> I don't see the computer business improving by much any time >> soon. So, I'm >> skeptical of ITAA's claim that there is a shortage of 600,000 >> IT workers. >> Lots of experienced professionals and very bright new college >> grads in >> computer science can't find jobs, even after very lengthy periods of >> searching. >> >> My nickel's worth of opinion is that the H1-B visa limits >> should be retained >> at the least, and preferably should be made even more >> restrictive to maximize >> the employment potential for the talented people in the U.S. >> already, be they >> citizens or non-citizens. >> >> Mike Soukup >> >> >> >> On Tuesday 16 July 2002 15:20, you wrote: >> > There are 2 sides to the issue. >> > >> > Using offshore talent lowers costs and hopefully making the >> bottom line >> > sweeter. But these days with accounting practices who can tell. >> > >> > The other side of the coin is that companies really seem to >> enjoy screwing >> > workers in the US and really pissing them off. >> > >> > As a stock holder I want my stock prices to be high no >> matter what. As a >> > stockholder it makes sense to outsource. Most Americans >> want that and so >> > do most CFO's, CEO's and Wall Street. Indians, Rumanians, >> Bangladeshis, >> > Nepalese and Chinese don't mind working for pennies on the >> dollar. It >> > seems like a sweet deal for them. >> > >> > On the other hand Americans want a very high salary and all >> the perks that >> > go with it. You can't have both. Somewhere someone has to lose. >> > >> > Having said that let me state that I am a US citizen and I >> am out of a job. >> > I have been looking for 8 months and 100 resumes later >> nothing. I feel >> > bad, I feel screwed by Nortel Networks (my previous >> employer) but what are >> > my alternatives? >> > >> > By the way anway looking for a good strategic analyst >> skilled in business >> > continuity and disaster recovery? Let me know. >> > >> > Subroto Mukerji >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Meritt James <meritt_jamesat_private> >> > To: <securityjobsat_private> >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:39 AM >> > Subject: Status Of The IT Talent Pool >> > >> > > According to a new report by the Information Technology >> Association of >> > > America, due to the lack of qualified candidates, U.S. >> companies will >> > > not be able to fill 600,000 IT positions over the next 12 >> months. Of >> > > course, IT job seekers who consider themselves qualified, >> not to mention >> > > available, are wondering where all these open jobs are. >> "I don't believe >> > > there is any dearth of qualified candidates," said one out-of-work >> > > programmer who has submitted more than 200 resumes since >> April. "I don't >> > > think this economy is going to change any time soon." >> While ITAA says >> > > that there are 600,000 unfilled jobs, it does not say how >> many of these >> > > jobs are actively being advertised. Analysts believe many >> of these jobs >> > > are vacant due to economics rather than a lack of talent >> - especially >> > > since so much talent seems to be out of work. In its >> report ITAA says >> > > U.S. hiring managers will be looking to fill more than >> one million jobs >> > > during the next year. Candidates who are well versed in >> C++, Oracle, >> > > SQL, Java and Windows NT technologies will see the most >> demand for their >> > > services. Since these technologies have been around for >> some time, some >> > > analysts believe that finding qualified candidates shouldn't be a >> > > problem. Of course, ITAA's report has been released in >> time for Congress >> > > to consider tinkering with the H-1B visa limit, which is >> set to go back >> > > to 65,000 in 2003. While it does lobby on several tech >> issues, ITAA >> > > would like to see the visa limit abolished, giving tech >> companies free >> > > reign over satisfying their talent needs any way they can. >> > > Read more online: Knowledge At Wharton,7/15/02 >> > > >> > > -- >> > > James W. Meritt CISSP, CISA >> > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton >> > > phone: (410) 684-6566 >> >
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