I was just trying to help with a change of perspective without trying too hard to put the person down. I agree that there is an incorrect thought pattern, thus the tone of my first e-mail. I myself was totally "immature" about my career until I got laid off while the "Senior" guys, who spent 5 years "in-front" of a Cisco rack surfing the web, kept theirs because of "experience". It's not too hard to figure out a persons skill set when there are problems in the network from day to day...and you see who can really do the job and who is "faking the funk"! As far as who is getting laid off...I also live and work in the DC area, but I have seen quite the opposite. Out of some 10 Senior engineers, all kept their jobs, and some later changed jobs for even more $$. Guess we don't have any hard data to back it up...other than the CNN Money article link I sent you. My experience and that are all I have to go on. I do know that in programming, what you are saying is very true, because they can put a satellite dish in a small town in Bangawana and teach the 12 year olds to program in VB for $0.000001 a line of code, compared to a US $0.10 a line. Other than that...we pretty much agree...looking at the pay of others is pointless, unless you use it to learn their tricks. I latched onto a number of the Senior engineers that really knew their stuff, and worked hard to learn the tricks of the trade. I had never heard of Google before. (Google rocks!) I learned that most of them saw themselves as a business. They "invested" in their own development with both time and $$, they worked hard to please their "customers" (clients, company and co-workers) by giving them a lot of value for their money. They never stole from the company by surfing the web at work, or spending hours chatting about cars with their co-workers. They worked hard at being a streamlined business and they are worth every penny they get...and more. But treating yourself as a business also means that you are about the bottom line. Which means that you can't get ahead if you have no revenue to re-invest in yourself!! I am about the bottom line, and if a company don't give me room to grow, then I will have to lay them off. (To bad I can't use any un-ethical accounting practices to pay for more training and resources! lol) It's a delicate dance, but there is much that the individual can do. Throwing up ones hands in despair is not the answer! Make it happen...one step at a time. Doug -----Original Message----- From: Crumrine, Gary [mailto:GCrumrineat_private] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:08 AM To: 'Douglas Gullett' Subject: RE: Am I getting the wrong end of the stick????? Hey I went through the process of retiring from the AF and moving to the private sector a few years ago, and I can tell you, I was green to the process myself... so I know what he is going through. When you spend 20 or so years making less that 40K on average, and get out with an offer of say 50K, you think you have died and gone to heaven. Then the reality of it all hits when the taxes kick in, and you find yourself in dire straights. You either learn quick, or get bitter... and it sounds like he is the latter... I think it wrong for someone who has only a few years of experience to compare their worth to someone who may have been around for a long time and came to the table with a proven track record. Unfortunately we don't know his fellow coworker's backgrounds. It sounds pretty immature to me for him to be making comparisons and assumptions based on what he perceives as their knowledge level or experience. And that is where I think he should concentrate his efforts... not in complaining, but in finding out how to use the system to his advantage. I am not sure what part of the country you work in, or industry, but in government circles in and around Washington, DC, there is a shift taking place where companies are dropping senior people in favor of improving their bottom line. I have seen companies demand salary reductions in order for senior people to keep their jobs... and for no other reason than boosting the profit numbers to keep the investors happy. It does happen, and unfortunately, more often these days. Unless you have a gimmick, or the company has built an entire business around the principal individual, I have seen them drop like flies. Only to be replaced by new and excited, read that cheap, kids fresh out of college. The senior guy then goes to another company, uses their contacts to establish a new business relationship with their old customers, build a new practice with the new company and the cycle starts all over again. I learned that the hard way as well.... I have found that concentrating my efforts on providing the best service I can to my customers, keeping them happy, and giving them more that what they paid for pays more benefits than spending time and effort worrying about who makes what. Eventually, it gets noticed, and the financial rewards do follow. -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Gullett [mailto:dougg03at_private] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:52 PM To: Crumrine, Gary Subject: RE: Am I getting the wrong end of the stick????? Thanks Gary...I agree that it has to be mutually beneficial for company and employee. First let me say that making more money actually gives you more job security (unless it is obscenely high). Many companies think there is a reason that you are making so much money. The ultimate in unfair? Maybe. Here is a link from CNN Money about it. http://money.cnn.com/2002/09/10/news/layoffs/index.htm The less you make the greater your chance of being replaceable. Secondly, please go easy on our original poster! He has been in a different world and a different culture for 9 years. Though that will certainly help him in getting good government contract jobs, there is no negotiation of pay in the Air Force! You get what they give you! So we should offer all the help we can...without the old manager/worker animosity. Third, I have to disagree with you on your idea that you can just hire someone more desperate over a person with a Masters. While true...it is not going to be the best thing for the company in most cases. You get what you pay for, and a Masters shows that a person has very impressive time management skills, and can assimilate large amounts of data at a VERY rapid pace! Doug -----Original Message----- From: Crumrine, Gary [mailto:GCrumrineat_private] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:01 AM To: 'Douglas Gullett' Subject: RE: Am I getting the wrong end of the stick????? the art of negotiation is one skill that is hard to learn... I think you may have hit it on the head when you said you traded less pay for experience and learning.... All jobs are give and take... and one thing that absolutely has to happen is that the company must make a profit. When salaries creep into that upper range... the margins that the company enjoys get smaller... which means you are more of a target when things get tight.. which is the kind of market we are in right now. Chasing degrees is another subject that is being focused on these days... If you want your Masters because you think it will get you more money... think again. As a manager, once you have your main degree, I want to see very focused training and certifications... I know you can learn now... I believe advanced degrees in many cases can hurt you if you try and push the salary envelope with it. I can always find someone willing to work cheaper because they are more desperate... I think the individual who started this thread exhibits several traits that indicates a great need of growing up and getting a bit more street wise. One, you don't go around discussing wages and waving degrees in people's faces. Especially not to fellow workers. IF they have a problem, it should be discussed with HR, not Joe in the next cubicle. As far as comparing their education to their boss, well chances are that boss has a proven track record of getting things done, and although they may not be as technically savvy, they really don't have to be... that is what they hired the technician for remember.. They get paid to take all the heat, keep things moving on schedule and budget and reporting back to senior leadership their progress. Just because someone moves up the food chain does not mean they have to be smarter... Take a deeper look... I think they probably have earned their lofty positions.... -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Gullett [mailto:dougg03at_private] Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 12:58 PM To: sean dankers; securityjobsat_private Subject: RE: Am I getting the wrong end of the stick????? I would say that taking a job at ANY company that does not have a formal evaluation process is a mistake. I was unemployed for a year and finally took a job with a small 50 employee company. The recruiter told me that they had an evaluation process, but I actually asked to speak with a number of the employee's and I actually asked them the question of how often they had gotten reviews, and if raises were a part of the review process for exceptional reviews. I also asked them how much of a resource the HR department was to them and other employee's. After lengthy negotiations where I gave a lot of ground and they gave a little...I took the job for less than I was worth, because I was confident that I would solidify my skills with experience on the job and get more "formal" (title oriented) security experience. I also knew that I had a decent chance of getting a raise at review time. I just got my review and was given a 20% increase. I am still underpaid, but one more year and another possibility of a raise like that and I will be in fair market range. Then I will have the number of years on my resume to get the upper hand in interviews, and when a person changes jobs, they should shoot for around a 20% increase. I have a college degree and am planning on starting my Masters Degree next year. I also have a number of Certifications, because I know consulting companies like that kind of thing...so do many clients. One other thing. Don't think about what others are making. If you are not making that, then it is your responsibility to find the reason and fix it (and I am not talking about in that company). You are the owner of the business that is "you"! You are your own sales force, marketing agent, trainer, accountant and CEO. If pay is important to your job satisfaction, then make sure you know how to make it happen in your chosen field. It may take time, study, money, risk, and job changes...but you can make it happen. -----Original Message----- From: sean dankers [mailto:seandankersat_private] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:45 AM To: securityjobsat_private Subject: Am I getting the wrong end of the stick????? I work as a govt contractor in DC and have been with my present company for a year now. Previously I was in the Armed Forces for 9 years to give you a little background. Anyways, I went in for a review and was told that they do not give formal reviews because they have less than 50 employees. My supervisor then stated that all was to receive was a Cost-of-Living adjustment. I am currently the lowest paid IA analyst on the so-called team. I say so-called because the team lead is one with no IT experience and a associates from 1974 in Interior Design and gets a little more than 7k than I do. She has been here only a few months because I was the only one working on a 3 person contract. The newest team member is fresh out of the Army working on his Masters and gets 15k more than I do. I have worked with the client to help my company get a new contract and have helped them get another federal contract during my time here. Should I have received more than a COL raise for being a excellent employee and surpassing my initial expectations?????? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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