Of course, if you did manage to hack an XBox and load some DDOS client on it, you still need to worry about how to ensure it runs at every boot and that a game doesn't knock it out. On top of all that I'd say the risk is lowered anyway - how many people leave their console on & online 24hrs a day ready to participate in an attack? Effort -v- Result, who is going to hack out a DDOS network only to find they can't use it when they need it. £0.02. Ian Kayne Technical Specialist - IT Solutions Softlab Ltd - A BMW Company > -----Original Message----- > From: Elan Hasson [mailto:elanat_private] > Sent: 22 May 2002 18:36 > To: Evans, TJ; vuln-devat_private > Subject: RE: Online Games Consoles and Security Implications > > > Exactly, its common knowledge the more code you have, the > more room for > error(bugs). ALOT of functionality was ripped from the kernel > to have it run > on xbox, the docs do say something about 'no ntfs, no ACLs' etc.. > everythings running in ring0 from what i understand. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Evans, TJ [mailto:tjevansat_private] > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 5:58 AM > To: vuln-devat_private > Subject: RE: Online Games Consoles and Security Implications > > > Not to step into an area that I know little about <xbox > security>; but I > think " If Microsoft could secure a game console running > Win2K you'd imagine > Win2K and XP would be a lot more secure then they appear to be." Is > something of a logical fallacy. > > Keep in mind - we are talking about separate worlds here - a > game console is > something that, for the most part, need to perform *ONE SET > OF FUNCTIONS*. > Making hardware, software and peripherals work together in a > secure, FAST > fashion when you only need to do 1 set of functions, and when > user tinkering > is <by default> limited/non-existent (not counting those of > you who crack > the case open and really get into them :)> is *nowehere* near > as difficult > as trying to make an OS/platform that needs to support > thousands of pieces > of 3rd party software, hardware and has users breaking it in countless > unimaginable ways ... > > > </$.02> > Thanks! > TJ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elan Hasson [mailto:elanat_private] > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:25 PM > To: Stan Bubrouski > Cc: vuln-devat_private > Subject: RE: Online Games Consoles and Security Implications > > heh, nintendo was cool.. > I own an xbox myself. I'm VERY happy with it. i should > probably install > the xdk again and post some of the docs to the list. It was > saying how all > the packets are encrypted and stuff and how it can take a DoS (for > example, something that could 'clog the pipe') and be able to drop the > packets and sort through the garbage-data and not affect game > performace > packets or something. > > Yes, it does run a Windows2000 kernel (slimmed down of > course) I've even > played with dissassembling xbox images. Its nice stuff. VERY > nice. MS did > an excellent job with it. the fact that all of the software runs on a > harddrive and isn't on a chip is a BIG plus. That gives the > ability for > people to download updates and stuff to it...hehe XBOX-service pack 1 > anyone? HEH! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Bubrouski [mailto:stanat_private] > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:15 PM > To: Elan Hasson > Subject: Re: Online Games Consoles and Security Implications > > > Elan Hasson wrote: > > The xbox is VERY secure, read the docs on Network Security > in the SDK. > > > > MS even has a bit in there about Denial Of Service..and how > the xbox can > > handle it and not affect game performance. > > > > REDICULOUS. They call Win2k very secure. They call IE very secure. > The bottom line is that it is a Microsoft product with embedded Win2k > code (correct?). This is quite the contrary to what you suggest. If > Microsoft could secure a game console running Win2K you'd > imagine Win2K > and XP would be a lot more secure then they appear to be. What > Microsoft writes and what Microsoft does are two different things, you > can't guarentee security, you can only try to ensure it by taking the > proper steps. I recall Bill Gates calling Windows one of the most > secure OS's, A FLAT OUT LIE. > > Not trying to start a flame war, so let's not, just pointing > out to kids > that might be reading this, that there is no proof the XBoX is more > secure than PS2 or anything else. You want security, pull > out your old > 1986 nintendo ;-) > > Best Regards, > > Stan Bubrouski > > > ************************************************************** > ************** > * > The information in this email is confidential and may be > legally privileged. > It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email > by anyone else > is unauthorized. > > If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, > copying, distribution > or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, > is prohibited > and may be unlawful. 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