I think I've seen some of the reading material you're talking about. Sorry, but I just don't agree with most of it. But, I respect your right to read and believe anything you choose. That's the power of our Constitution and what sets us apart from a large number of the world's nations. Anything else and we could fall into the same tribal conflict that we see every day now on TV from Afganistan. I do agree with you that there are things worse than death. Being forced to wear a veil from head to toe and being beaten with a stick for going outside if you are a woman is one of them. That's why I'm thankful every day that I have the opportunity to think, say, and believe whatever I choose because I am a citizen of the US. Corny as that sounds, I believe there's no other place better than right here, and even with all it's faults, our system allows us rights and freedoms unlike anywhere else. It's also why I respect your view and believe in your right to express it, along with everyone else's right to do the same. By the way, I agree with you that no-one who objected to wearing a UN patch should have had to serve in that command. Anyone who objected should have been rotated to another assignment and not penalized in any way. Also, you are not alone in your view of the overbreadth of RICO statutes. Many prosecutors won't charge RICO for several reasons. And, there are always overly aggressive law enforcement officers at every level. The Barney Fife syndrome wasn't just for TV. But that's why we have our checks and balances. And, I believe that most, MOST, law enforcement officers know where to draw the line and are sincere and professional in their jobs. There are always exceptions. I just choose to believe in our system and what we have built as being strong and half full, rather than half empty. Anyway, thanks for listening to my soapbox too. Happy Thanksgiving folks. -----Original Message----- From: BAIRD Dion E * DAS DOIT [mailto:Dion.E.Baird@private] Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 7:03 PM To: 'Crispin Cowan'; webb1973 Cc: Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland Crispin speaks the truth in and I like the manner he speaks it in. He puts is bluntly, but not rude. I have in my 12 years in the 'service of my country' seen a great many things that would lead me to believe that most people don't have a clue as to what the heck goes on. Your 'so called' civil liberties are not even close to what they used to be, and if you think they are, start reading and investigating. Ever heard of the Rico statutes? The Rico statutes say if you are even SUSPECTED, of one of several crimes (usually drug related), you can have your house, your car, your whole life seized right out from under you, and sold even before you are found guilty. What's your recourse if found innocent? You can't even sue the government unless they say you can! How about Bosnia? Did you know that we were under foreign command there (allied or not it was foreign), and that is SPECIFICALLY covered in the constitution as treason? What happened to the few who refused to wear the beret and the patch for the UN? They were tried in courts-martial and none of this made the press again. The public needs to wake up and open their eyes. Our government has taken far more power than was ever supposed to be given it. Why? Because we the American people thought we needed the good old Federal Govt. to protect us. All I can say my friend is that there are things far worse than death. I hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving. Thanks for listening. -----Original Message----- From: Crispin Cowan [mailto:crispin@private] Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 5:32 PM To: webb1973 Cc: Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private Subject: Re: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland webb1973 wrote: >Mr. Kohlenberg, you seem to have a strong resentment of government's role in >your life. That's a joke, dude. > Toby is not alone. > Just kidding. But seriously, do you really >believe asking questions is a precursor to dark happenings down the road? > Yes, absolutely. > Do >you really believe that there's some hidden agenda or plot to enslave >Americans? > Yes, absolutely. The Government constantly seeks to expand its powers. The purpose of the Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights, is to limit this expansion. It is traditional for the Government to use the threat of war as an excuse to expand its powers, because the foreign threat makes the public more pliable. > That our government is becoming an evil empire? > Yes, absolutely. Especially the current administration. > Come on, dude! >Are we wrong to want to be safe from terrorists? > No, but the "safety" measures the Government is proposong have very weak security value, and very strong intrusions into civil liberties. IMHO, the current administration is a far greater threat than terrorism is. > And what's this "lashing >out" business? We have always had law enforcement that we can count on to >have good judgment. > You have GOT to be kidding. Police abuse of powers have been occurring for decades (at least) in America. Such abuse tends to occur much more when public oversight is limited. Secret military tribunals and secret detention of people without access to council are just invitations to abuse. Which is why such actions are defined by the Constitution AS abuse. The Government is way, WAY over the line of what is called for in the present situation. > They do their jobs every day, without anyone noticing, >and they make good decisions. We only hear about the bad instances, and not >enough about the good. > I believe that most law officers are good and well-intentioned people. But I am not willing to write the police department a blank check of "do whatever you want, never mind that pesky due process stuff." I have not heard any of the fine officers on this mailing list advocate such action, but I HAVE heard John Ashcroft and assorted Administration and Congressional persons advocate (effectively) the abandonment of due process. >We also have constitutional >safeguards in place that won't allow the kind of dark future you seem to >fear. > Are you paying any attention at all? Those Constitutional safeguards have ALREADY been violated. >These thing can't be unilaterally changed in our Constitution. > But they can and have been unilaterally ignored. Crispin -- Crispin Cowan, Ph.D. Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com Security Hardened Linux Distribution: http://immunix.org Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
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