Also remember that the people who our government wish to interview are not
US citizens, they are guests as I understand it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron_Deming@private [mailto:Ron_Deming@private]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:25 PM
To: webb1973
Cc: crime@private; Crispin Cowan; 'webb1973';
owner-crime./var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime@private; Busby, Richard
Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
Don't be overly impressed by this statute. It's being widely quoted, and
used as justification for Mr. Kirkland's response to the FBI's request for
assistance. I would suggest we are looking at a case of selective (and
silly) enforcement. If the statute were consistently applied as it's being
applied in this case, how would a police officer be able to ask neighbors
of a person whose house has been burglarized if the neighbors saw the
burglar, or had any other information that might be useful? Of course it's
legal for police to request an interview with private citizens about
information they may have as it relates to a crime that has been committed.
There is no obligation for the citizen to answer the questions, or even to
grant the interview. There is no "erosion" of rights here.
It's quite distressing to see all this discussion of "rights", with little
or no parallel discussion of one's duty, as a citizen, to help with this
kind of investigation. Everyone seems eager to claim and protect
individual rights ( I suspect this is human nature - or, at least American
human nature), without acknowledging our responsibility, in the face of
external threat, to close ranks, and defer to the immediate needs of the
nation. The Bill of Rights is vitally important to us, but so is common
sense. I don't see any threat to the Fourth Amendment that would justify
all this hand-wringing. While we are busy arguing fine points of law and
philosophy, there are people (people, by the way, who don't concern
themselves with anyone's right to Life, Liberty, etc.) working diligently
to destroy us and our way of life. I'm a lot more worried about them than
I am of our government's motives in this matter. I think we need to deal
with the problem at hand, and worry about the niceties later. A newspaper
columnist summed it up pretty well recently: "A rattlesnake in the living
room tends to end all discussion of animal rights."
Best Regards,
Ron Deming
"webb1973" <webb1973@private>
Sent by: To:
"Busby, Richard" <richardb@private>, "'webb1973'"
owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/l
<MSN/webb1973@private>, "Crispin Cowan" <crispin@private>,
ists/crime
<crime@private>
cc:
Subject:
RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
11/23/01 05:35 PM
Good point. You added an element of which I was not aware. What is the Or.
Statute of which you speak? I was unaware that there was a statutory
restriction since I'm not an Oregon resident. With a statute as restrictive
as you describe, and if local law enforcement is prohibited from
participating in such interviews (questions), then I have no quarrell or
criticism of the Chief. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, you hit the
nail
on the head about appreciation of having the freedom to debate these
issues.
The country is great because of our personal freedoms and our inherent
right
to disagree. But there I go again, reverting to patriotic jingoism. Seems I
have the nasty habit of doing that. My only other comment is that we must
be
careful not to place labels on those with whom we disagree, rather than
engage them in sincere discourse. Arrogance weakens argument and honest
discourse suffers. Thanks for letting me know about the statute, it makes a
difference in the way I look at this issue.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
[mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of Busby,
Richard
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 3:42 PM
To: 'webb1973'; Crispin Cowan; crime@private
Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
Doesn't anyone see the irony of even being able to have this deabte? We
have
freedom of speech. If we didn't we could not even have this discussion.
That's what makes the country great. Each of us is entitled to our opinion.
In Oregon there is also the issue of a statute that indicates that no
person
can be questioned unless they are suspected of a crime.
Civil liberties are never taken away in big pieces, thgey are eroded. as
Thomas Jefferson said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." He was
talking about the citizenry watching out for what the government is doing.
The fascists in the 30's took away rights slowly and piece by piece. Look
what happened there. I applaud any decision that upholds individual
rights. I am deeply troubled about the 9/11 attacks and the loss of life,
but that is, in my own personal opinion, absolutely no reason to take away
anyone's rights.
Thanks for listening.
-----Original Message-----
From: webb1973 [mailto:MSN/webb1973@private]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:13 PM
To: Crispin Cowan; crime@private
Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
Yeah. Way to go, Chief. I'm sure the families who lost loved ones on 9-11
will enthusiastically support your politically correct decision. And, if,
and when one or more of the 200 non-citizens does something to contribute
to
more deaths from another terrorist activity, they'll fully understand your
decision not to ask questions because it was the politically correct thing
to do. Isn't America great!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
[mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of
Crispin Cowan
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:29 AM
To: crime@private
Subject: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland for defending civil
liberties
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21PORT.html?ex=1007363873&ei=1&en
=978%20a71dca117098f
Note: the above URL requires free "registration". You can access the
article using the user-ID/password combo of "cipherpunks/cipherpunks" or
"wirex/wirex".
Crispin, card-carrying member of the EFF :-)
--
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com
Security Hardened Linux Distribution: http://immunix.org
Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sun May 26 2002 - 11:33:20 PDT