re: What do the following conditions lead you to believe?

From: H C (keydet89at_private)
Date: Mon May 20 2002 - 05:58:12 PDT

  • Next message: Frank Knobbe: "Empty Palm"

    To the OP (you didn't sign your post, and I get the
    giggles every time I see "boo boo ball"...)...I've
    added my comments inline...
    
    > I have a question.  Given the following conditions 
    > what would you think happened?
    >
    > Subject computer=MS NT Workstation 4.0 service pack
    6a
    >
    > 1. Several profiles under c:\winnt\profiles\ were 
    > accessed at 3 am, but not the profile of the user
    who
    > was logged on at the time.
    
    Can you be more specific about what you mean by that? 
    Are you saying that the last access times for the
    directories each show the same last access time,
    except for the logged in user?  Are are you referring
    to the files in each directory?  What time was the
    profile directory of the logged in user last accessed?
    
    > 2. The workstation is in a building where everyone
    is > at home at that time.  The user typically locks 
    > his/her account and leaves the computer on all
    night.
    >
    > 3. When a user logs on an SMS batch job is also run 
    > and it shows the last entry in its logs being from
    the 
    > day before.  A user was logged onto the workstation 
    > when it was confiscated so it seems to indicate that
    > the user was logged in a day before the odd 3 am 
    > access and a day afterwards as well without 
    > interruption due to power loss, or someone else 
    > logging on.
    >
    > 4. Evidence was acquired with write blocks placed on
    
    > the subject drive so the time stamps should be 
    > unaltered by the acquisition process.  The software 
    > used to acquire was Encase v3.9 and when the 
    > workstation was confiscated it was not shutdown
    > gracefully but rather the power cord was unplugged. 
    
    > It was hoped this would leave the workstation HD in
    a 
    > state equal to the state it was in when in use.
    >
    > 5. The workstation had the local time settings set
    correctly.
    >
    > 6. Other than Outlook, the user doesn't have
    programs > running when they lock the workstation for
    the night.
    
    What about when the workstation was confiscated?  Was
    any attempt made to collect volatile data from the
    workstation prior to shutting it down?
    
    > 7. The workstation is behind a firewall without
    known > direct connections to the Internet.
    
    Was any information regarding network connections
    collected from the system prior to it being shut down?
    
    > My question is, does this actually mean anything?  
    
    Perhaps, perhaps not.  It's pretty clear to me that we
    don't have all of the information.  For example, what
    was the event that required that the system to be
    confiscated?  Surely the system would not have been
    confiscated and a dupe made of the drive simply
    because the last access times of some profiles were at
    3am.  That's a lot of time and effort (and expense)
    for something that could simply have been
    FindFast...after all, this is an NT4.0SP6 workstation,
    right?  Is/was MSOffice installed?  Since no process
    information seems to have been collected from the
    system prior to shutdown, we don't know if
    findfast.exe was running at the time...but you could
    tell us, from the image, whether findfast is set to
    run via the StartUp directory or Registry.
    
    > Could it be that there's some file or program on MS
    NT 
    > systems that periodically look through the files
    under 
    > winnt\profiles\ and that's why the access times are 
    > showing access at 3 am? 
    
    Yes, sure, it could.  But without a more comprehensive
    view of the system, we won't know.  Forensics analysts
    don't hang their analyses on one piece of
    information...there needs to be corroborating evidence
    to support the analysis.  
    
    As I said above, it could be anything.  FindFast,
    perhaps some other application had been
    installed...but we don't know.  In fact, all we can do
    is wildly speculate...we don't know what was running
    when the system was shutdown.  In order to recreate
    this, you'd have to re-start the system, and perform
    all of the tasks that the user did prior to the system
    being confiscated.
    
    > Or, does all of this mean 
    > that someone had to have accessed the workstation
    and 
    > done some action which would cause the access time 
    > stamps to read a last access of 3 am?
    
    Depends...was logging enabled?  If so, was the system
    recording logins via the EventLog?  Was Process
    Tracking enabled?  If so, maybe a process initiated
    just prior to 3am that would account for the activity.
     
    
    Was the Task Scheduler running?  If so, have you
    interviewed the user or the admins to see if they
    regularly use the Task Scheduler for anything?  You
    mentioned SMS...was there an SMS job running at 3am?
    
    > I'm not a MS wiz by any means having spent most of
    my 
    > time on *nix boxen so am not completely familiar
    with 
    > the programs NT runs.  Do the standard MS NT
    programs 
    > periodically access the files in /winnt/profiles of 
    > the profiles not logged on at that time?
    
    I think that given the information you've presented,
    that's really too narrow a view to take...forgive the
    bluntness, please.  I'm not going to make any comments
    on the reasons why EnCase was used here, as there
    isn't enough information.  However, I will suggest
    that a forensics analysis of a system involves a lot
    more than simply making an image and then analyzing
    it...interviewing the user, as well as the admins, may
    be necessary.  Getting an idea of what was running on
    the system, etc...but then, it isn't clear what you're
    trying to prove.
    
    To answer your overall question...sure, there is quite
    a bit that *could* have happened to cause what you
    saw.  However, there just isn't enough information
    available in your post to do anything except
    speculate.
    
    HTH...if there is anything I can do to help, just drop
    me a line...
    
    
    
    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
    http://launch.yahoo.com
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    This list is provided by the SecurityFocus ARIS analyzer service.
    For more information on this free incident handling, management 
    and tracking system please see: http://aris.securityfocus.com
    



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Mon May 20 2002 - 06:19:23 PDT