RE: Imaging a "live" system

From: H C (keydet89at_private)
Date: Thu Jun 13 2002 - 05:53:26 PDT

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    > Hi Carv,
    
    Hey, Matt!
    
    > I guess the dividing line is if you known
    > substantial financial harm has
    > come to your organization, then immediately take any
    > volatile evidence from
    > the machine <insert plug for Carv's software here>
    > in what hopefully is a
    > forensically sound manner and power it down, as
    > legal action is likely to be pursued.  
    
    While I fully agree with what you've said, my
    experience has been that things actually happen a
    little differently.  Usually, an incident might be
    identified or suspected, the admin "mucks about" or
    "plays with" the machine for a bit, and either finds
    something...or not.
    
    Take a look at some of the other lists, particularly
    Security-Basics...very few people dealing with NT/2K
    systems know about tools like handle and fport.  
     
    > However, if you are simply gathering the extent of
    > damage due to "suspicous"
    > events, then gathering volatile data <insert Carv
    > plug #2> and then live
    > imaging may be more appropriate to determine the
    > nature of these events.
    > It's quite possible evidence will be altered during
    > the long imaging process
    > or even destroyed, at least the argument could
    > always be made in court.  
    
    I'm not sure how performing "live" imaging will
    provide assistance in determining the extent of damage
    due to an event.  
    
    I do agree with the fact that a "live" image may not
    be admissable in court...one thing that folks who
    testify have said is that tools aren't questioned by
    opposing counsel as much as methodologies are. 
    However, the decision to make a "live" image should
    include whether or not prosecution is a goal.  I
    wouldn't recommend making a live image at all, if
    prosecution is the end goal.  Any manager who says,
    "we want to prosecute, but we can't take the system
    down" needs some education.  
    
    I've seen cases in which someone other than the
    security staff has hired an outside firm to perform
    forensic analysis, and there was never any reason to
    believe that the case would ever be taken to court. 
    Such cases are a waste of resources...time, money,
    etc.
    
    > But
    > at least you would have a static record to mull over
    > to see if someone
    > hacked and hopped to another machine (the whole
    > "Baked Alaska" analogy).
    
    Yes, having _something_ to work with, should you need
    it, may be advisable.  I once met an admin who took
    images of drives for just about any incident...and his
    office is full of drives he hasn't looked at...and
    doesn't have the time to do so.
     
    > I had a test server that showed what appeared to be
    > a trojan (Trinoo profile, but odd port).  
    
    Just out of curiosity, what did the output of fuser or
    lsof (assuming Linux system here) show you about the
    port/process?
    
    Carv
    
    
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