Re: Direction of the mailing list/effort

From: Stephen Smalley (sdsat_private)
Date: Thu Apr 19 2001 - 05:20:11 PDT

  • Next message: Stephen Smalley: "Re: Direction of the mailing list/effort"

    On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Casey Schaufler wrote:
    
    > Don't forget other popular policies, including the No Checks
    > policy, Bell & LaPadula, Biba, NT (no endorsement implied),
    > and no-SUperUser-capabilties. Most importantly, the "new"
    > scheme should be built out from the existing framework. The
    > SELinux and RSBAC schemes are much more implementation models
    > than security policies. 
    
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  The RSBAC and
    SELinux architectures already support Bell-LaPadula and Biba,
    and the set of example policy models provided with the two
    system include an example MLS/BLP model.  I'm not sure what
    aspects of NT access control or No-SuperUser-Capabilities can't
    be handled via the existing architecture and interfaces of
    these two systems.  It is precisely because SELinux and RSBAC
    provide general architectures (rather than just specific
    policies, although they do provide examples of those as well)
    that they are suitable for this purpose.
    
    > There are many issues associated with "security IDs", including
    > performance, exportability, and persistance. I favor keeping
    > real security attribute information to the indirection usually
    > required of security ID schemes. Mapping IDs to security data
    > is a major problem in application space. Of course, if IDs refer
    > to data with actually identifies the security information,
    > that's fine. My understanding is that that's not the case
    > for SELinux.
    
    In SELinux, security IDs are opaque handles to "security contexts",
    which contain the actual security attributes.  The mapping is
    maintained by the security server, and is accessible (subject
    to control by the policy) to applications.  With regard to
    persistence, we address that through persistent label mappings
    in each file system based on per-filesystem persistent security
    identifier number spaces.  So security IDs are local and
    non-persistent (for scalability).  In any event, this 
    is all described at length in the SELinux documentation and the 
    Flask paper.
    
    > You have always argued in the past that RSBAC is too
    > different from SELinux for their approaches to be useful
    > to SELinux. I recall in particular issues against the
    > wrapper approach.
    
    Either you are incorrectly remembering what I've said in the
    past, or I've previously spoken incorrectly.  RSBAC isn't
    a wrapper-based approach.  There is a lengthy thread on
    the selinux mailing list (see the archives) between
    Amon and I comparing SELinux and RSBAC.  I think that
    both systems separate policy from enforcement and can
    support a variety of security policies.  There are certain
    areas where each system has its advantages.
    
    > I do not believe that SELinux or RSBAC is a good starting point.
    > I believe that the first "module" should be Linux as it is today.
    > I believe that the second module should be "No Access Checks".
    > I believe that the third module should be Pure Posix Capabilities.
    > After that, anything goes to recommend extension to the mechanism.
    
    My concern is that this will not yield the truly generic
    solution desired by Linus.  SELinux and RSBAC weren't
    created in a vacuum - they drew upon years of prior
    research.  
    
    --
    Stephen D. Smalley, NAI Labs
    ssmalleyat_private
    
    
    
    
    
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