Replies to: "Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02524.html ********* Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:51:51 -0400 To: declanat_private, farberat_private From: Esther Dyson <edysonat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Cc: politechat_private In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010917230038.0268ba70at_private> does anyone notice what they call in the trade "leading questions? How about, "Should individuals and businesses be allowed to use encryption to prevent penetration of their computers and communications by terrorists? Esther Dyson ********* From: Bosley_J <Bosley_Jat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:19:27 -0400 Declan, as a recovering survey researcher I have to express some doubt that a random sample of the general public has sufficient understanding of encryption and/or how reducing same would "aid" the CIA/FBI for these results to be at all valid. John Bosley ********* Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:54:43 -0700 To: declanat_private, politechat_private From: Lizard <lizardat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010917230038.0268ba70at_private> Some better questions: "Since the government can't keep hackers from defacing government web sites, do you feel secure that they'll be able to keep encryption keys safe?" "Given the prescence of spies, such as Aldrich Ames, at the highest levels of government, is it really a good idea to allow broad access to communication?" "Cops in LA have been shown to have planted evidence in order to convict people they have personal vendettas against. Do you want them to be able to read your email without even a warrant?" "Recently, entertainment companies have begun to encrypt music and DVDs. These encryption schemes are usually 'cracked' within days, if not hours. Since the best programmers work for high-paying corporations, not low-paying government agencies, do you really trust any encryption scheme the government will event?" "If you feel 'Only people with something to hide support encryption', please post the full contents of your hard disk to an FTP site. Including things like your Quicken files, your personal love letters, and all the cookies from all web sites you visit. Yes, including that one. Especially including that one, you naughty little devil, you!" ********* From: "Jones, Greg" <greg.jonesat_private> To: "'declanat_private'" <declanat_private> Subject: RE: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:38:54 -0400 IMO, This survey and the referenced debate shows that too many people have a superstitious faith in technology. This obsession clouds the thinking and obscures the real work that must be don, in most situations. In the current instance, there have been no reports of evidence that technology had anything to do with the attack on the WTC. it is unlikely that Bin Laden or the Taleban used an Internet chat room to recruit the suicide squad. The idea that Carnivore or any other electronic eavesdropping can produce the kind of intelligence needed to stop such attacks is ludicrous -- by all reports, Afghanistan has been bombed back into the stone age already. Internet cafes are probably scarce. The focus on technology means our intelligence and law enforcement will be able to monitor us more closely, which has not been proven to be necessary. What is needed is monitoring of our enemies by means of human agents, who will be the only effective means to identify further plans for terrorist attacks. Encryption keys will not help an intelligence community that ignores explicit warnings and publicly stated threats. ********* Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:55:01 -0400 To: declanat_private From: "Michael F. Reusch" <reuschat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010917230038.0268ba70at_private> At 11:26 PM 9/17/01 -0400, you wrote: >Unfortunately for the clarity of debate here, the >ban-crypto-without-backdoors question is poorly worded ("Should Encryption >Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?"), but then again I suspect >most people figured it out. This poll is noteworthy not only for what it >found, but that the pollsters included the crypto question in the first >place. It shows that, all of a sudden, this has become a serious debate in >Washington. Declan, I suspect that most of the people responding to this poll had only a vague understanding of encryption and that a similarily loaded question like "Should Neutrino Shielding Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?" would get a similar, knee-jerk response, given our present circumstances. Regards, Michael ********* Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:15:24 -0700 To: declanat_private From: Carl Ellison <cmeat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Cc: DCCP list <dccpat_private> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010917230038.0268ba70at_private> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 11:26 PM 9/17/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >How Much Would The Following Prevent Similar Terrorist Attacks? > Very Somewhat Not Too Much Not At All >Reduce encryption to >aid CIA/FBI 35 37 12 9 > > >Should Encryption Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance? > Yes No > 54% 39% The way they asked these questions, I'd have to vote "yes" too. The thing they're missing from the question is that you have no control over the S/W used by terrorists. So, to ask the questions properly, you need to ask: "Reduce the encryption of Americans but not that of terrorosts, to aid CIA/FBI" "Should Americans' legal ability to use encryption be reduced, given that terrorists can continue to use strong cryptography?" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO6dIqHPxfjyW5ytxEQLzewCbBAlMCiIyjtPNTU0QCNrLLujqUtcAnRbm oexBxq20VDax6I478LMBfduA =Zm0D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ********* Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:27:39 +0100 From: Simon Waters <Simonat_private> Organization: Eighth Layer Limited To: declanat_private Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Unfortunately for the clarity of debate here, the > ban-crypto-without-backdoors question is poorly worded ("Should Encryption > Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?"), but then again I suspect > most people figured it out. The question is so badly worded that it is almost useless, in my opinion. Encryption laws would have to be increased, and some people will vote for less laws whatever. Just look at the various other proposals to alter the law; Removal of ban on political assassination. Removal of ban on Intelligence funding of unsavory characters. These laws were imposed as they were seen to be necessary at the time. The US intelligence community was behind Bin Laden when he was killing Soviet soldiers, and he is just the kind of person the second of these laws was introduced to help stop. The use of encryption has previously been ruled to be covered by the first amendment, and is just the kind of "essential liberty" needed to prevent Governments becoming tyrannies. That this law also seems to provide some solace or point of refuge for the terrorist is because the law is aimed at protecting liberty, and liberty allows you to do bad things if you choose. Given that Afghanistan has been outlawing Internet use I doubt modern encryption played a big part in this incident, unless possibly it refers to the ability to intercept telephone conversations. Given the reports that some of the terrorists were on an FBI list, and used their own names when boarding the aircraft leads one to wonder if perhaps we should look at how well we use existing intelligence before we start giving the intelligence community more powers. ********* From: "Dale Robertson" <dalerobertsonat_private> To: declanat_private Cc: dalerobertsonat_private Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:05:51 Declan: Why would anyone volunteer to knowingly have their freedoms and privacy reduced just so that can continue to enjoy their freedoms? This is an twisted, confused and insane paradox! There is a presumption implanted in the question that the "war against the osoma ben badguy" is utterly dependent on elimination of privacy - -ie: choice and to that extent freedom. That's simply BS! Those who prefer to abdicate their freedoms and privacy to the feds - for any reason - simply have no respect for the rich lessons found in history. That's why Benjamin Franklin said: "Those who would trade their liberty for security deserve neither!" However, I will very sadly observe that for the first time in history we have an American nation who in its majority for its daily bread looks not in the mirror but rather faces east to that pathetically polluted would be panacea on the Potomac and after falling to our knees, pray that our daily bread will continue to arrive. We've been seduced! In the latter case, it is easy to understand why the whims of government seemingly carry with them the imperative of obedience while supplicating choice, privacy, individual freedom and liberty itself. If it is security you want, then I will suggest that you petition the government to lock you up - - and then you will "enjoy" a nearly perfect security! Have we Americans sold our soul for a mess of pottage? Dale Robertson dalerobertsonat_private ********* Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:08:43 -0700 To: declanat_private From: "A.Lizard" <alizardat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says >http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/business/docs/bizletters16.htm >Headline inflammatory >2001-09-17 05:45:23 > >I hope, in light of this terrible tragedy, that Dan Gillmor will cease his >whining about personal privacy and recognize that our national security >and the safety of our citizens override his concern about privacy, ``We >have been tested before and survived: Don't let criminals shut down our >freedoms'' (Aug. 12). The government absolutely must have the ability to >monitor all encrypted messages, and anyone sending or receiving encrypted >messages on our soil that cannot be decoded by the appropriate federal >agency must be subject to arrest and seizure of the encryption equipment. >We are at war, and we all, including Gillmor, need to recognize that. >Al Colby >Corralitos No crypto means no e-commerce. Crypto with back doors get broken *quickly*, and the first bunch of people who find their credit card numbers spread all over the Net because they had misguided confidence in a "back doored" system recommended by the government and idiots like you will be screaming their heads off to the media. Or did you want the government to force the media to silence over "little" problems like that? If the government permanently wipes out e-commerce as you want it to do, this will do even more damage to the economy than losing a dozen World Trade Centers. The enemies of America would like this, and if we lose crypto in the name of security, only they will have reason to celebrate. A strong economy both makes us terror targets AND gives us the ability to *do something about them*. You think this a bad thing? Let's recast your statement in an older technology: "The government must be able to open all our (US) mail without warrant or reasonable cause." Can you figure out what's wrong with that without help? The only reason why Americans support ending useful encryption is that they've been fed disinformation instead of facts and the mass media swallowed it and regurgitated it to the public without questions. If the question were recast: "Would you be willing to risk a major depression due to anti-crypto laws created to make personal privacy on the Internet impossible?", who would favor it? As for the terrorists, guess what? There are places to get crypto outside the USA. All making crypto software illegal in the US will accomplish is to move corporations and private citizens to non-US crypto software. If you think you'll get the whole world to sign off on a "crypto ILLEGAL" policy, think again. *** Yes, we are at war. Who's side are you on? *** A.Lizard ********* Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:59:52 -0700 From: Troy Davis <troyat_private> To: Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:26:24PM -0400, Declan McCullagh <declanat_private> wrote: > Also note that 72 percent of those surveyed said anti-encryption laws would > be "somewhat" or "very" helpful in preventing similar terrorist attacks. [snip] > U.S. Put Arabs and Arab-Americans Under Special Surveillance? > Agree Disagree > 32% 62% 32% of respondants think that Arab-Americans should be under special surveillance? That's a mind-numbing stat and, if statistically valid, makes me ashamed to be an American (and unwilling to trust other opinions of that 32%). Disgustedly, Troy ********* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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