Charles, and others, Crispin's evaluation is pretty much on the money. There are jobs available for all. It's just a matter of believing that, and going after them. I have a bachelor's degree in History and Philosophy, which was useful once I got my Masters of Science in Computer Science, because it intrigued potential employers into wanting an interview. The formal degree shows a lot more than being able to take tests. It shows, also, a certain level of tenacity. Read Manny Masongsong's story, and you begin to see. What is going to stop this guy from getting what he needs? Not much. The degree means you're willing to put in four or more years to get what you need to get ahead in this world. That may (or may not) somewhat predict where you will be at 5 p.m. when the end of the day arrives but the job still has to be done. In terms of getting the job in the first place, it depends on what the personnel requisition says, and what industry interests you. In Govt. contracts, for instance, almost every request for proposal describes the labor categories required for the proposal, and all but the most junior ot those usually specify a degree. They will accept "equivalent experience", but it's hard to write a proposal to show that, so many tech managers will tell their human resources people to screen the resumes--don't even bother showing me anything unless they have a degree of some sort from a reputable university. There are even programs that will now do that for you. That does not mean you need a degree to get a job, even a "good" job. It just means that without it, your options are more limited than they would be with the degree. Quit looking for the one true answer. There aren't any in life. Figure out what you're doing wrong in the interview, or if you're just applying for the wrong jobs for what you can offer, and correct that and you'll be fine. Ann Archibald Merdan Group, Inc. San Diego, CA Crispin Cowan <crispinat_private> on 04/26/2001 03:39:40 PM Please respond to crispinat_private To: SECURITYJOBSat_private cc: (bcc: Ann Archibald/NRaD/ACMS) Subject: Re: Network Security, degree or not degree "Forman, Justin (Justin)** CTR **" wrote: > Many security experts simply love technology and thus come to know it really > well. I haven't heard of many college curriculums (though the scene is > changing) that will take you to that level. However, I have heard of > conferences, educational events, independent training, and a great deal of > self-exploration options that will. My experience in hiring and managing degreed and non-degreed staff is that formal education and self-education produce different results. Self-educated people learn about whatever interests them, and that tends to bias their skills towards the practical end of things. Formally educated people get stuff crammed down their throat whether they like it or not :-) and that makes them aware of more theoretical issues that may not be fun to learn about, but definitely are important. So I seek out degreed people for positions that require theoretical knowledge, and seek self-educated people (degreed or not) for more practical positions. For instance: It would be very useful to WireX to have a program that could examine a perl script and identify a complete list of files that the perl script will attempt to access. A self-educated person might spend a couple of months trying to build such a program. A theoretically aware person will know from the outset that it is provably impossible. NOTE: it is always important to seek self-educated people, whether or not they have a degree. If they aren't sufficiently interested in the area to educate themselves, then they likely won't perform well in the work place, regarding it as "just work." Crispin -- Crispin Cowan, Ph.D. Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com Security Hardened Linux Distribution: http://immunix.org
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