Re: Malicious use of grc.com

From: H C (keydet89at_private)
Date: Tue Nov 27 2001 - 09:59:06 PST

  • Next message: Thomas Schweikle: "Re: [ALERT] Remote File Execution By Web or Mail: Internet Explorer"

    > 	Microsoft's "disclosure coalition" is nothing more
    > than a
    > synthesis of the worst of both worlds, offering us
    > nothing but a
    > restricted government in terms of security, and a
    > restricted press in
    > terms of vulnerability disclosure.  
    
    I offer up Simple Nomad's words:
    
    http://www.nmrc.org/InfoAnarchy/sn.txt
    
    > I heartily concur that adherence to the RFPolicy is
    > the ideal
    > solution, but it is not simply ideal because of the
    > obviously reasoned
    > approach it outlines; rather, RFPolicy is is ideal
    > because it is *voluntary*.
    
    That is the only flaw I see at all...that the policy
    is voluntary.  
    
    Identifying vulnerabilities is a GOOD THING(tm). 
    Doing so responsibly is a BETTER THING(tm).  
     
    > I'd noticed that portion was missing as well,
    > though it didn't
    > give me cause for concern as it appears this
    > vulnerability had been
    > previously and publicly discussed in an open forum. 
    > This alone
    > necessitates an acceleration of the advisory
    > process. 
    
    I have followed the current discussion, but haven't
    seen where this issue has been discussed previously. 
    Also, previous discussions about the issue weren't
    addressed or referenced in the advisory.
    
    Also, rather than posting an 'advisory' that seems to
    have the primary purpose of disparaging Gibson,
    wouldn't it be simpler to just identify the issue, and
    then recommend a fix (ie, blocking the pertinent IP
    range)? 
     
    > Simply put, if I ran a server farm that got
    > breached on a large
    > scale and the intruder defaced its web sites with
    > the method used in the
    > intrusion, then all bets are off with respect to
    > vendor notification. 
    
    So notifying the vendor in order to get a needed patch
    is out the window?  Or are you saying that notifying
    the vendor and then observing a 30-day waiting period
    for public disclosure is out the window?
    
    I would recommend the following...immediately notify
    the vendor and request immediate attention (as the
    issue is currently *in the wild*), and then release
    the advisory that describes the issue, with a section
    of the advisory stating that the vendor has been
    notified.
    
    > The
    > beast is already in wild.  The same holds true if a
    > vulnerability is
    > talked over in a public setting.
    
    It has long been known that there are a wide variety
    of "public settings".  Some would consider IRC to be a
    "public setting", but it is impossible to for everyone
    to monitor all "public settings".  The only way for
    such an argument to hold is if a specific set of
    "public settings" are identified, and everyone agrees
    to use only those settings for their discussions. 
    Otherwise, saying that Gibson should have known about
    it already b/c it was discussed somewhere on the
    Internet is just so much bs.
      
    > All that said, I believe the immediacy was also
    > warranted, given
    > the puffery Gibson solicited during his XP/DDoS
    > media blitz.  Nothing is
    > more abhorrent than hypocrisy; especially in
    > security circles.
    
    What I find abhorrent is the argument that simply b/c
    you don't agree with someone, he deserves to be
    slapped down and discredited at every opportunity.  
    
    In the larger scheme of things, who really cares?  So
    Gibson made a big stink about XP...so what?  What was
    it that upset everyone?  That he has a different
    opinion with regards to some issue?  Or was the
    problem his choice of colors and fonts on his web
    page?
    
    > I don't know that it's the advisory author's
    > responsibility to
    > give a full narrative of 4W&H of notification.  I've
    > found a simple one-
    > or two-liner is sufficient (date notified and date
    > of response [if any]). 
    
    Sure.  I never asked for the full 4W&H.  However, that
    one- or two-liner was nonexistent.
    
    > The greatest good has nothing to do with it.  To
    > lift a phrase
    > from the 1992 Presidential campaign, "It's the
    > Economy, Stupid."  Times
    > are tough for high-tech businesses.  With enough of
    > a war chest, Satan
    > himself could get plenty of companies to hop on
    > board his platform.
    
    Interesting point.  Perhaps I should have rephrased
    that to say "the greater good, as such is identified
    by each company"...
     
    > People feign outrage when an advisory is released
    > without proper vendor contact.  
    
    I, for one, do not "feign" anything.  Nor am I
    outraged.  I simply find a great number of
    contradictions between the theory and the practice of
    full disclosure.  The responsible thing to do would be
    to contact the vendor.  RFPolicy even mentions as
    much.  Whether the advisory author chooses to allow an
    arbitrary period of time to pass in order to allow the
    vendor to respond is up to him. 
    
    This situation could have been handled differently. 
    As it is, Magni's advisory comes off as just another
    rant against Gibson.
    
    Sure, sure...I know.  Port scans are used as the
    precursors to an attack of some sort.  Sure.  I spent
    a great deal of time handling "abuse@" emails for a
    large ISP, so I know what people think of port
    scans...or what they consider to be port scans.  I
    also know from being a consultant that a lot of admins
    leave vulnerable systems on the Internet w/ little to
    no protection.  But in the end, the issue with
    Gibson's web site is that someone can "anonymously"
    port scan another site.  Be that as it may, they're
    still going to have to connect directly to the site,
    or use some other proxying mechanism, in order to
    exploit anything they find.
    
    > I personally consider the assault
    > on the First Amendment
    > that requires individuals and companies to engage in
    > self-censorship
    > (under threat of turbo-legal harassment under the
    > auspices of the DMCA and
    > other abominations) to be a much more grave outrage.
    
    Can you elaborate on what you consider to be this
    assault on the First Amendment?  Is it the DMCA?  
    
    
    
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