RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland

From: webb1973 (webb1973@private)
Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 14:28:59 PST

  • Next message: webb1973: "RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland"

    Again folks, don't get hung up on the "detained and held" issue. That is NOT
    what the INTERVIEWS of 5,000 people are all about. Local law enforcement is
    NOT being asked to hold or detain anyone. They are being asked to do what
    they normally do...ASK QUESTIONS that could aid in a criminal investigation
    of the murder of 4,00 - 5,000 people. An interview is just what the word
    means...INTERVIEW. Don't confuse interviews with arresting someone. This is
    not a custodial situation. If any person is in the US legally, he/she is
    afforded the same protections as any other citizen. Nothing since 9-11 has
    changed that. Due process is due process. It has NOT been abrogated in any
    way. On the other hand, if someone is in this country illegally, INS has the
    right to detain them and deport them. INS has always had that responsibility
    and duty. There is nothing different about this procedure since 9-11, except
    more illegals and more people out-of-status have been detained and are being
    processed for deportation. Or, if they have been found to have broken or are
    breaking the law by living under a false identity or using false documents,
    or providing false information to INS or any other law enforcement agency,
    then they are subject to criminal prosecution like any other citizen. And,
    they are afforded due process like any other citizen. There's nothing
    different in the procedures used by INS, FBI, or any other federal law
    enforcement agency since 9-11.  I am mystified as to why anyone would have a
    problem with arresting and/or deporting someone who has been living here
    illegally and living under false pretenses and/or violating our laws? And
    that has nothing to do with interviewing the 5,000 people. How is that a
    violation of due process for that alien? All of us, as citizens, are subject
    to the same rules. If someone uses your identity, should that person be
    prosecuted or held accountable? If someone provides your company with false
    information that results in a loss to you, and that person happens to be in
    this country illegally, should that person be held accountable? What should
    happen to the person? Should he be treated any differently because he's a
    foreign national?
    
    And folks, believe it or not, there are foreign nationals who come here for
    criminal reasons, and who provide false documentation to INS and others in
    order to live here for purposes other than legitimate. This is not a perfect
    world people. Mr. Kolenberg mentioned that he'd been in Kosovo. I'd venture
    a guess that he could describe some very difficult things that he's seen
    that bears witness to what lies beyond our borders. Our servicemen and our
    law enforcement personnel do a difficult job with little or no public
    reward, but their sacrifices allow us to sit in our chairs and argue due
    process in the safety of our work place or home until something like 9-11
    happens. Let's not forget that. Not every cop is a good guy, and not every
    foreign person coming into the US is  good person. If we have high standards
    for our law enforcement, why should we not have high standards for people
    coming here as non-citizens?
    
    Folks, don't mistake interviews as a precursor to a police state. The
    interviews are NOT custodial and not intended to trick some innocent person
    into prison.
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of
    JACKSON Di M
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 10:01 AM
    To: 'Crispin Cowan'
    Cc: BAIRD Dion E * DAS DOIT; Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private
    Subject: RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    Do we have any INS folks in this group .... My understanding is, and don't
    quote me, but any person who enters USA on a work permit, visa and/or green
    card are advised that they can be detained and/or held for no reason by the
    INS. This privilege does not apply to state or local law enforcements
    agency's which is why the Chief Kirkland is doing what he is doing. On the
    other hand these folks are holding visa/work permits/green card have been
    back grounded and investigated by the FBI, Interpol etc. These folks all
    have paper trails,( INS records, school records, taxes, etc,)  so allot of
    the preliminary backgrounding can take place at FBI or INS quarters. An
    interview would be the last thing, which goes to prove again ... newspapers
    are more interested in selling papers.
    As for your law enforcement comments - I was just like you, till I did a
    ride-along. Quiet frankly. Law enforcement is a thankless job, they deal
    with all the undesirables and they are "dammed if they do and dammed if they
    don't". Everybody deserves credit and/or praise for doing there job. A
    Deputy I went on a ride-along with saved a boy at Multnomah Falls. He took a
    rope from his patrol car and scaled down a rock face to save this boys life.
    There was nothing in the newspaper about it ... pretty sad.
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Crispin Cowan [mailto:crispin@private]
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:28 AM
    To: webb1973
    Cc: BAIRD Dion E * DAS DOIT; Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private
    Subject: Re: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    webb1973 wrote:
    
    >I think I've seen some of the reading material you're talking about. Sorry,
    >but I just don't agree with most of it. ... That's why I'm
    >thankful every day that I have the opportunity to think, say, and believe
    >whatever I choose because I am a citizen of the US. Corny as that sounds, I
    >believe there's no other place better than right here, and even with all
    >it's faults, our system allows us rights and freedoms unlike anywhere else.
    >
    It is not about the US vs. Country X. It is about the US vs. its own
    ideals, like life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and equal
    treatment of all under the law. The US can be much better than it is, by
    adhering to its own ideals, which it is NOT doing. In particular, the
    current administration is engaging in a horrid power-grab under the
    guise of "extreme circumstances." Circumstances may be extreme, but the
    relationship between the circumstances and proposed responses is
    tenuous, at best.
    
    >It's also why I respect your view and believe in your right to express it,
    >
    On occasion, feel free to actually respond to any of the points that
    people have made, rather than resorting to patriotic jingoism. How in
    the Hell is it ok to round up and question people based on racial
    profiling? The "they are witnesses, not suspects" excuse is weak, at best.
    
    Crispin
    
    --
    Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
    Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com
    Security Hardened Linux Distribution:       http://immunix.org
    Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
    



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