You might stop to consider that what you view as patroitic jingoism might actually be what many people consider to be American ideals. I am mystified why you have once again interjected personal attacks into your response. Do my views have not value because they don't comport with yours? This is, after all, an exchange of ideas and beliefs on a particular subject...isn't it? Am I to assume that ideals and personal comments in this forum are more valid for some than for others, depending on the particular view of "American ideals" that are expressed? If that is the manner in which these conversations are to be structured, then I'm sure you will be pleased to hear that I respectfully decline to participate. Personal attacks should have no place in serious forums of debate. If I am wrong, Mr. Cowan, then I would ask that you identify the ideals you keep talking about. If you can tone down the personal attacks and articulately express the ideals of which you speak with such emotion, I would enjoy hearing them. I promise not to reject offhand or with distain your personal ideology or ideals as "militia tainted" or "unpatriotic". Nor will brand you as a pinko or leftist liberal, even if you want me to. Maybe I would, however, be able to understand how you view your national ideals as having been violated. So, far, you've given me no reason to seriously consider your objections. Tell me how my ideals are mere patriotic jingoism, Mr. Cowan. All I ask is that you do it with some modicum of good manners and mutual respect. Is that too much to ask? Maybe I can be saved by your power of persuasion and come to passionatly engage the same ideology as you expound. Give me a reason to do so. Explain yourself. For example, how can the US be so much better than it is? How has the US violated it's own ideals? What the heck is your interpretation of it's ideals? I don't have a clue, because you haven't told me. The least you could do before off-handedly accusing me of patriotic jingoism is to explain what lies at the bottom of your intense anger at our loss of ideals. Do you have some personal insight into the "horrid power grab" of which you speak? Or did you just read it somewhere? Is this the "actual response" that you were looking for? Or are my questions just a shallow attempt to once again interject patriotic jingoism into this conversation? -----Original Message----- From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of Crispin Cowan Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:28 AM To: webb1973 Cc: BAIRD Dion E * DAS DOIT; Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private Subject: Re: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland webb1973 wrote: >I think I've seen some of the reading material you're talking about. Sorry, >but I just don't agree with most of it. ... That's why I'm >thankful every day that I have the opportunity to think, say, and believe >whatever I choose because I am a citizen of the US. Corny as that sounds, I >believe there's no other place better than right here, and even with all >it's faults, our system allows us rights and freedoms unlike anywhere else. > It is not about the US vs. Country X. It is about the US vs. its own ideals, like life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and equal treatment of all under the law. The US can be much better than it is, by adhering to its own ideals, which it is NOT doing. In particular, the current administration is engaging in a horrid power-grab under the guise of "extreme circumstances." Circumstances may be extreme, but the relationship between the circumstances and proposed responses is tenuous, at best. >It's also why I respect your view and believe in your right to express it, > On occasion, feel free to actually respond to any of the points that people have made, rather than resorting to patriotic jingoism. How in the Hell is it ok to round up and question people based on racial profiling? The "they are witnesses, not suspects" excuse is weak, at best. Crispin -- Crispin Cowan, Ph.D. Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com Security Hardened Linux Distribution: http://immunix.org Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
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