RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland

From: webb1973 (webb1973@private)
Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 15:19:34 PST

  • Next message: Busby, Richard: "RE: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland"

    You might stop to consider that what you view as patroitic jingoism might
    actually be what many people consider to be American ideals. I am mystified
    why you have once again interjected personal attacks into your response. Do
    my views have not value because they don't comport with yours? This is,
    after all, an exchange of ideas and beliefs on a particular subject...isn't
    it? Am I to assume that ideals and personal comments in this forum are more
    valid for some than for others, depending on the particular view of
    "American ideals" that are expressed?  If that is the manner in which these
    conversations are to be structured, then I'm sure you will be pleased to
    hear that I respectfully decline to participate. Personal attacks should
    have no place in serious forums of debate.
    
    If I am wrong, Mr. Cowan, then I would ask that you identify the ideals you
    keep talking about. If you can tone down the personal attacks and
    articulately express the ideals of which you speak with such emotion, I
    would enjoy hearing them. I promise not to reject offhand or with distain
    your personal ideology or ideals as "militia tainted" or "unpatriotic". Nor
    will brand you as a pinko or leftist liberal, even if you want me to. Maybe
    I would, however, be able to understand how you view your national ideals as
    having been violated. So, far, you've given me no reason to seriously
    consider your objections. Tell me how my ideals are mere patriotic jingoism,
    Mr. Cowan. All I ask is that you do it with some modicum of good manners and
    mutual respect. Is that too much to ask? Maybe I can be saved by your power
    of persuasion and come to passionatly engage the same ideology as you
    expound. Give me a reason to do so. Explain yourself. For example, how can
    the US be so much better than it is? How has the US violated it's own
    ideals? What the heck is your interpretation of it's ideals? I don't have a
    clue, because you haven't told me. The least you could do before
    off-handedly accusing me of patriotic jingoism is to explain what lies at
    the bottom of your intense anger at our loss of ideals. Do you have some
    personal insight into the "horrid power grab" of which you speak? Or did you
    just read it somewhere?
    
    Is this the "actual response" that you were looking for? Or are my questions
    just a shallow attempt to once again interject  patriotic jingoism into this
    conversation?
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime
    [mailto:owner-crime@/var/spool/majordomo/lists/crime]On Behalf Of
    Crispin Cowan
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:28 AM
    To: webb1973
    Cc: BAIRD Dion E * DAS DOIT; Toby Kohlenberg; webb1973; crime@private
    Subject: Re: CRIME Kudos to Acting Police Chief Andrew Kirkland
    
    
    webb1973 wrote:
    
    >I think I've seen some of the reading material you're talking about. Sorry,
    >but I just don't agree with most of it. ... That's why I'm
    >thankful every day that I have the opportunity to think, say, and believe
    >whatever I choose because I am a citizen of the US. Corny as that sounds, I
    >believe there's no other place better than right here, and even with all
    >it's faults, our system allows us rights and freedoms unlike anywhere else.
    >
    It is not about the US vs. Country X. It is about the US vs. its own
    ideals, like life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and equal
    treatment of all under the law. The US can be much better than it is, by
    adhering to its own ideals, which it is NOT doing. In particular, the
    current administration is engaging in a horrid power-grab under the
    guise of "extreme circumstances." Circumstances may be extreme, but the
    relationship between the circumstances and proposed responses is
    tenuous, at best.
    
    >It's also why I respect your view and believe in your right to express it,
    >
    On occasion, feel free to actually respond to any of the points that
    people have made, rather than resorting to patriotic jingoism. How in
    the Hell is it ok to round up and question people based on racial
    profiling? The "they are witnesses, not suspects" excuse is weak, at best.
    
    Crispin
    
    --
    Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
    Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc. http://wirex.com
    Security Hardened Linux Distribution:       http://immunix.org
    Available for purchase: http://wirex.com/Products/Immunix/purchase.html
    



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