RE: IDS and forensics

From: Tom Arseneault (TArseneaultat_private)
Date: Fri Jan 24 2003 - 13:21:06 PST

  • Next message: Knut Eckstein: "Re: IDS and forensics"

    It is very configurale but has a number of drawbacks. First it uses tcpdump
    as it's sensor which means that it can't, easily, monitor packet payload
    contents. Second it uses tcpdumps syntax for it's configuration file so it's
    very hard to get it right, Third, it's not realtime, your console is always
    an hour old. Lastly, it's a diskspace hog because it stores everything on
    the sensor, all traffic the sensor sees it saves (by default, but it is
    configurable via the tcpdump file). The management station hourly downloads
    the sensor data and runs it thru filters to reduce it. On a small lan (~12
    hosts, all web servers, and one sensor) I was getting about 512Mb a day
    after reduction, but it was very useful data.
    
    Tom Arseneault
    Security Engineer
    Counterpane Internet Security.
    "All humans are born Right-Handed...but the great ones overcome it."
     
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: perrierorat_private
    [mailto:perrierorat_private]
    Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 8:49 AM
    To: keydet89at_private
    Cc: forensicsat_private
    Subject: Re: IDS and forensics
    
    
    Seems to me that this is the software that you are looking for.
    
    http://www.nswc.navy.mil/ISSEC/CID/index.html
    its called shadow. does IDS and also logs all the packets. Seems very
    configurable to me.
    
    Robert Perriero
    Montclair State University
    Systems and Security Group
    
    > I'm interested in other's views of network IDS systems
    > when looking at incident response and forensics
    > activities.
    >
    > This comes up from my hands-on dealings w/ IDSs like
    > RealSecure and NetProwler.  These systems provide
    > alerts, but don't keep the actual packets that
    > initiate the alerts.  I've done some research w/
    > NetProwler specifically, and haven't been able to find
    > any explicit definition or descriptions of the alerts.
    >  So I'll see an alert for "MS RPC portmapper small
    > packets", but I have no way of determining what
    > "small" is...and since we do a lot of DCOM on that
    > subnet, I'd really like to see what the actual
    > contents of the packet are...but can't through
    > NetProwler.  I know I could load up snort or tcpdump,
    > and do captures that way, but Symantec recently
    > announced that it's no longer supporting NetProwler,
    > so...
    >
    > About a year ago I was working w/ RealSecure and had
    > the same issues...couldn't see what the packet
    > contents were, nor could I see what the actual details
    > of the filter were.  On top of that, the ability to
    > create user-defined filters is extremely limited.
    >
    > What this leads to is the question of how useful such
    > systems are in the face of network forensics.  If the
    > packet contents themselves aren't saved in some way,
    > but only used to trigger an alert, then how suitable
    > are such systems for forensics?  To take a step back,
    > if the signatures themselves aren't viewable, and only
    > the alert, then how does the admin *really* determine
    > what happened?  In most cases, they'd be at the mercy
    > of whatever info the IDS console provides.
    >
    > Thoughts?
    >
    > Carv
    >
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