This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msE59F4C166A607887571C76A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee, I tried not to answer, but as you responded again I decided to. I can give two reasons why I think folks have has problems with headhunters. One (a minor irritant) has to do with the fact that virtually every headhunter I've dealt with makes you dial a toll call to contact them. I understand business reasons for such and in this day and age telephone charges are relatively cheap, but still an irritant. The next I feel is more to the heart of the problem. When first dealing with applicants or preparing an applicant for an interview, headhunters seem to go out of there way to talk to you. BUT when you've gone to that interview and the client isn't interested in the applicant, the headhunter doesn't seem to have the time/decency to call you and let you know the results. I seem to remember once going to an interview at E&Y once and never finding out the results because I didn't chase the headhunter down. To make it worse, a few months later a headhunter from that same firm called and asked if I was interested in E&Y. I explained what had happened in the past and he promised me he would find out what happened and get back to me. He didn't. The funny ending to this story was when the original headhunter decided to go out on his own and sent me an invitation to utilize his firms services. How would you feel. By the way, I do believe the vast majority of the best jobs can be found thru headhunters. Lee Kushner wrote: > Let me start by saying it is disheartening that most of you have had such > unpleasant experiences working with recruiters. > > I think that when you are searching for a position, it is not only important > that the recruiter knows what you have accomplished and what direction you > want your career to go, but they should also be able to give you an accurate > assessment of your skills, the marketplace and the fair market value of your > skills. > > I would much rather my recruiter be able to accurately assess my skills, > know the industry and the current market conditions, than how to configure a > firewall, implement a host based IDS, or write UNIX exploits. It is the > former that will assist you in finding the right opportunity for your > future. > > In addition, some of the better technical recruiters were formerly technical > professionals that decided that they wanted a different challenge. > > I invite any of the subscribers to this list to contact me personally, or > any of the trained information security recruiters at L.J. Kushner and > Associates L.L.C., the next time they want to explore the opportunities in > the Information Security marketplace. > > I am sure that our recruitment process would change your opinion. > > Lee Kushner > CEO - L.J. Kushner and Associates, L.L.C. > (732)577-8100 > Suite 302 > 36 West Main Street > Freehold, NJ 07728 > www.ljkushner.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ry Jones [mailto:rjonesat_private] > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:25 PM > To: SECURITYJOBSat_private > Subject: Re: Job question. > > All, > Here is my input based on more contracts than I care to remember. > > > edelkindat_private wrote: > > Some recruiting firms will offer you packaged computerized tests in your > field > Run away from anyone who busts out the skills test. As the writer > said, you only have one or two skills you want to present anyways. > Another bad thing about skills tests is this: if you took a class in > COBOL in college and you put a 1 down for COBOL, what do you do when > they offer you a submission in a COBOL shop? I only list the skills I > want to work with. If I don't want to do it again I drop it. I used to > paint houses and hang tapes, you don't see "computer operator" or > "industrial coatings applications" on my resume. That I was container > and high steel certified for painting matters 0 today. > > > If you really must go through a headhunter despite all of this, here are > some > > things to keep in mind: > > 1. Be very careful with your resume. > > This is important. On my resume it says "not to be submitted without > the express permission of Ry Jones". I only hand it out when there is > a submittal for it. Handing your resume out to everyone is counter > productive. > > ANother reason to resrict access to your resume is so that people > don't archive old ones. I can't count the number of times some > recruiter submitted a three year old resume they had laying around. I > get a call about some bogus job in Renton... cha, as if. > > > 3. Many people who go to headhunters will be less knowledgeable than you, > but > > will lie on their resume. They will probably end up getting the jobs that > you > > are qualified for. You can live with it, or you can lie on your resume > too. > > If your interviewer is worth anything they'll pop a liar like a big > zit. I have some standard interview questions for UNIX; one is, what's > your favorite editor? If it's vi, I'll ask a string of progressively > harder questions to find out how strong they are. I've had people who > said they were VI gods not be able to search and replace. Really. > I call these people "nice guys". If the only thing I can say about you > is that you're a nice guy, your resume goes in the hall of shame. > > > 4. Keep your references handy. If a headhunter agrees to send your resume > to a > > client, they will not then wait around for you to send them your > references if > > they have others waiting as well. > > No. Do not hand out references as if they were candy. All the > recruiter wants to do is call your references up and bug them about > getting a new job. If you're in the final stages of interviewing for a > job you want, give a list directly to the firm. Never, ever give > references to a recruiting firm. > > > 5. Headhunters generally like certifications -- any of them. If you have > an > > MCSE, you will be much better qualified for a position relating to > security or > > unix, as far as many headhunters are concerned. > > I look at certs as a bogometer. The more certs, the more bogus you > are. If you have time to go get certs, what are you doing with your > life? The only exception I make is if they were employed by the > company. When I was at MSFT, you could earn MS certs for essentially > free. In that case, why not? Same for Sun and Java certs. It's free. > > > I'm sure (i hope) there are some headhunters who know their elbows from... > > [...] but (no offense to headhunters) most do not. > > If recruiters knew much about tech, why would they be recruiters? > The whole point of a resume is to get a recruiter to call you and > submit you to an employer. The whole point of the recruiter is to > filter out resumes as quickly as possible and get the ones they can > make money on to the clients who need them. You can't expect a > recruiter to be tech savvy. > Ry --------------msE59F4C166A607887571C76A3 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIKngYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIKjzCCCosCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC CCowggT0MIIEXaADAgECAhAwIzl51Lbd8FYoWvL33UixMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMIHMMRcw FQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5 IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRp dmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXItUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTk5MTAxOTAwMDAw MFoXDTAwMTAxODIzNTk1OVowggEPMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UE CxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9y ZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMV UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQLEypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBO ZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxGDAWBgNVBAMUD01hcnR5IEdpbGxlc3BpZTEcMBoGCSqG SIb3DQEJARYNbWdnQGRuYWNvLm5ldDCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAx9YL +JkQ2DwnZrRr7qcHlMxGkpSCQ5L2QudhQ3DjxKfsAyMnno0lZBYXsDyeSMP01y1Jjtgdi3Fp oHYl6o5GYRLzRtVnZTba4CBcINE3ezy3ZkctwS8uQaI2kZvyxLYUlRsxqAnmYfo3DjQHVZQx LEFcrHMlNREbeXPMeA4818cCAwEAAaOCAY8wggGLMAkGA1UdEwQCMAAwgawGA1UdIASBpDCB oTCBngYLYIZIAYb4RQEHAQEwgY4wKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWdu LmNvbS9DUFMwYgYIKwYBBQUHAgIwVjAVFg5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjADAgEBGj1WZXJpU2ln bidzIENQUyBpbmNvcnAuIGJ5IHJlZmVyZW5jZSBsaWFiLiBsdGQuIChjKTk3IFZlcmlTaWdu MBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIHgDCBhgYKYIZIAYb4RQEGAwR4FnZkNDY1MmJkNjNmMjA0NzAy OTI5ODc2M2M5ZDJmMjc1MDY5YzczNTliZWQxYjA1OWRhNzViYzRiYzk3MDE3NDdkYTVkM2Yy MTQxYmVhZGIyYmQyZTg5MjEyYTg2ZmY0ZGUxMTQ5OTlhMmJiNDdmOWYzZWE0NTY0MDMGA1Ud HwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEEBQADgYEASCNM2JkIT0HYwkAPf3vf58Gu8mru2LxoCxkqsziXJLhVjZGuVpI6zaO/ +qEHMWWPdf+RgzF0Gy545zHBhaRESK70J8JYhFTG1IJC3JnrET0Eh7i6VSZz/3TgYW45QX04 8LCYjI1wnp6UsCu/F2MeJBzyrn4M2UTbArSjEmHwJL8wggMuMIICl6ADAgECAhEA0nYujRQM PX2yqCVdr+4NdTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFADBfMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVy aVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNzA1BgNVBAsTLkNsYXNzIDEgUHVibGljIFByaW1hcnkgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGlvbiBBdXRob3JpdHkwHhcNOTgwNTEyMDAwMDAwWhcNMDgwNTEyMjM1OTU5WjCBzDEXMBUG A1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsx RjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBS ZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBGBgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZp ZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEgTm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZDCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAu1pEigQWu1X9A3qKLZRPFXg2uA1Ksm+cVL+86HcqnbnwaLuV2TFBcHqB S7lIE1YtxwjhhEKrwKKSq0RcqkLwgg4C6S/7wju7vsknCl22sDZCM7VuVIhPh0q/Gdr5FegP h7Yc48zGmo5/aiSS4/zgZbqnsX7vyds3ashKyAkG5JkCAwEAAaN8MHowEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEB BAQDAgEGMEcGA1UdIARAMD4wPAYLYIZIAYb4RQEHAQEwLTArBggrBgEFBQcCARYfd3d3LnZl cmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQTAPBgNVHRMECDAGAQH/AgEAMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIB BjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQCIuDc73dqUNwCtqp/hgQFxHpJqbS/28Z3TymQ43BuYDAeG W4UVag+5SYWklfEXfWe0fy0s3ZpCnsM+tI6q5QsG3vJWKvozx74Z11NMw73I4xe1pElCY+zC phcPXVgaSTyQXFWjZSAA/Rgg5V+CprGoksVYasGNAzzrw80FopCubjGCAjwwggI4AgEBMIHh MIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3Qg TmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNv cnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBD QSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXItUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkAhAwIzl51Lbd 8FYoWvL33UixMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCggbEwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkq hkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDAwMjE3MjAxMzA3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU+gIXvH45lVUgKUVd wNP9VySu1OEwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkPMUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAw BwYFKw4DAgcwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAE gYCzXLKRV3rugQwvUTAUp/txB7TzLgLlLSu8zqEN+c2kW+wf+N0KCO9QPkCsCzN8nrdeOSWQ nxVSgdph0E4co0ljVHIMK4A81powJDl7IoCjMOmih7H52/9PQbVQ3dxQLfs0TBkEz5E7bSD3 UD1oB91B6Th8QEDcHMcsLCPMu4SzBQ== --------------msE59F4C166A607887571C76A3--
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