Then the laws under consideration need to properly defie those terms, and terms surrounding what 'terrorist' activities are, not broad strokes of a pen that allow anyone of us to be considered criminals and spend our lives in a federal prison. Thanks, Ron DuFresne On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Ken Ludeman wrote: > If the intent were to harm or cause disruption - stiff penalties should be > enforced. Life for hacking or defacing is a bit extreme - but attacks on a > network that could cause a company millions of dollars or more should carry > a stiff sentence... I agree - one didn't murder someone but then again we > let murderer's get off early all the time... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron DuFresne" <dufresneat_private> > To: "Ken Ludeman" <kludeman@adi-cs.com> > Cc: "Joel Rivers" <riversat_private>; "John Thornton" > <jthorntonat_private>; <declanat_private>; <ahat_private>; > <vuln-devat_private>; <othat_private> > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:39 PM > Subject: Re: Civil Disobedience > > > > > > But, do those 'crimes' deserve life imprisonment? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ron DuFresne > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Ken Ludeman wrote: > > > > > I agree with Joel..... Defacing, unethical hacking, and virus-writing > with > > > intent to distribute is a crime and the punishments for these crimes > should > > > be looked at more closely. But the "increase in government surveillance > > > authority" is of greater concern and a risk to our civil liberties. > > > > > > Additional "2 cents" worth > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Joel Rivers" <riversat_private> > > > To: "John Thornton" <jthorntonat_private>; <declanat_private>; > > > <ahat_private>; <vuln-devat_private>; <othat_private> > > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:47 AM > > > Subject: RE: Civil Disobedience > > > > > > > > > > What civil liberties are we giving up? Since when is hacking, > > > > virus-writing, and website defacing a civil liberty? I > > > > will agree that life imprisionment is a little harsh for defacing > > > > a web site but I think that harsher penalties hopefully will serve as > a > > > > deterent for this type of behavior. > > > > > > > > I'll say that the "increase in government surveillance authority" is > the > > > > primary area of concern in regards to "losing civil liberties" in this > > > bill. > > > > If anything, this is the area we should be focusing our concern, not > on > > > > harsh penalties for those who are attempting illegal behavior. > > > > > > > > My 2 cents worth, > > > > > > > > Joel Rivers > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: John Thornton [mailto:jthorntonat_private] > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:30 AM > > > > > To: declanat_private; ahat_private; vuln-devat_private; > > > > > othat_private > > > > > Cc: John Thornton > > > > > Subject: Civil Disobedience > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ( Moderator: Please pass this though Blue Boar. Please just allow > this > > > > > thread even if it is just for a day ) > > > > > > > > > > In case you have been living under a rock the past few weeks. You > should > > > > > know that our civil liberties are under attack. Kevin Poulsen wrote: > > > > > "Hackers, virus-writers and web site defacers would face life > > > imprisonment > > > > > without the possibility of parole under legislation proposed by the > Bush > > > > > Administration that would classify most computer crimes as acts of > > > > > terrorism." > > > > > ( http://www.securityfocus.com/news/257, Hackers face life > imprisonment > > > > > under 'Anti-Terrorism' Act). When you read the news this morning you > > > will > > > > > see that this bill was passed by the Senate. > > > > > (http://www.securityfocus.com/news/265, Senate passes terror bill). > > > > > > > > > > I will say that most of the readers of this news group are not > hackers > > > but > > > > > Network Administrators that are very involved with the Security > > > Community. > > > > > That is why I am asking you, not to report minor scans against > > > > > your network > > > > > to the abuse department of any ISP if this bill becomes law. > > > > > > > > > > I as a Network Administrator for many years now have been on a > routine > > > to > > > > > check my logs for scans against my network every morning and send > the > > > logs > > > > > of attacks to the abuse department of the ISP. I encourage every > Network > > > > > Administrator I ever talked to follow this practice to this day. It > is > > > my > > > > > job Network Administrator to report these attacks on my network, > > > > > it is what > > > > > I am paid to do. However if/when this bill becomes law I will no > longer > > > > > report these attacks and I urge every Network Administrator to join > me > > > in > > > > > this Civil Disobedience Protest against this bill. > > > > > > > > > > If/When this bill becomes law, Hackers/Script Kiddies will no longer > be > > > > > looked at as just kids messing around with computers, but as > terrorists. > > > > > Just as the press started to tell the difference between a > > > > > criminal who uses > > > > > computers and a Hacker. Now they all are just going to be > > > > > terrorist. I have > > > > > a problem with this. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you think this could not happen to you. Well I would suggest > you > > > > > read the story on Jerome Heckenkamp ( http://www.freesk8.org/ ). I > > > > > contributor to BugTraq who wrote a exploit for qpop who is now > facing 16 > > > > > counts of computer crimes, a maximum sentence of 85 years, and up to > $4 > > > > > million in fines. After Qualcomm reported him to the FBI. This > > > > > case is harsh > > > > > now, just imagine if this happen under the 'Anti-Terrorism' bill. > > > > > This could > > > > > happen to you. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I have always felt it was my duty to report attacks against > my > > > > > network to there ISP. I looked at it as doing my part to make the > > > internet > > > > > more secure. I figured it is a good lesson for the kid to have his > > > service > > > > > taken away. If this bill becomes law then its no longer just some > kid > > > > > getting his service taken away. It is something that can escalate to > > > much > > > > > more and could result to some kid going to jail for a long time. > > > > > I will not > > > > > be a part of it even if there is just a slight possibility that this > can > > > > > happen. I want nothing to do with it. > > > > > > > > > > I ask each and every one of you to join me in this protest. It is > not > > > to > > > > > late to make a difference. Once you lose your right you will never > get > > > it > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your time, > > > > > John Thornton - jthorntonat_private > > > > > Editor in Chief > > > > > Hackers Digest - www.hackersdigest.com > > > > > > > > > > H A C K E R ' S D I G E S T > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Issue 2 comes out November 1st. Will you get it? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > www.hackersdigest.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It > > eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the > > business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart > > ***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!*** > > > > OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything. > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart ***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!*** OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Mon Oct 15 2001 - 14:39:17 PDT