I have a controversial comment to add about the issue of "lying" on a resume. While I would never [publicly] condone lying on your resume to get a job, I would highly suggest using a little "creative exaggeration". Especially when you are going after your first security job. Getting a great offer is a business deal, and the most important aspect of business is sales. In this case, you are selling yourself to the recruiter and/or employer. Don't lie about anything that will get you into trouble mind you, only lie about things that you know you will be able to get away with :) In other words, if you learn very very quickly, and have enough brains and experience to understand the basic concepts (and arguably more importantly - know the industry lingo) - you can go a long way by exaggerating a little bit on your resume. And even though recruiters frown upon this practice (of course they do - they are liable) - I think it usually ends up working out quite well. Because if you are one of those people that learn very quickly, you will be bored out of your mind within 3 months of taking on a security position that matches your current skill set. So reach for the stars, and hopefully you will land on the moon :) Oh, and as far as the job sites go - I got 3 of the best jobs I've ever had from Monster.com, Dice.com, and HotJobs.com - they work pretty well when you are just starting out. Once you have a few years behind you, if you are any good at all you will have people begging you to come work for them. Especially in the SV / Bay Area - you can pretty much write your own ticket. It is a job hunter's market out there. Anyone whom claims otherwise is probably just not very good at what they do. And as far as recruiters go - they can be very useful at times. Don't discount them entirely. Think of them as agents - and use them to negotiate with a company on your behalf. They are pretty good about getting you more money or options or benes. So if you got ripped off the last time you bought a car - let a professional recruiter negotiate your job offer. One more thing, I personally feel that most certs are useless. The only people that get them are people that need something to point at when people question their credibility. If you truly know what you are doing - you don't need to hide behind a certificate. People will respect you for what you know. Also, if you really know what you are doing, you could easily teach the classes that prepare you for these certs. So why waste your valuable time? The CISSP - joke. The instructors at my class didn't know the difference between a buffer overflow and a DoS attack. Seriously - these cats haven't learned a thing since the VMS heyday. And *they* want to certify *me* as an expert? That's pretty funny. Go ahead and flame me. But I'm just keeping it real... Drew Dolopo wrote: > > okie doke, my question is this: what would be > considered a "lie", how would you catergorize > "experience" with "expertise"? > > for example, i'm a CS senior, but due to money > contraints i'll have to "try" to enter the workforce > soon. throughout my years messing with computers i've > gotten my hands dirty with various things (languages, > apps, hardware, etc.), as alot of people have. but > let's be honest here, is it truly possible to maintain > that level of "expertise" on everything? i don't think > so. as a student you learn, and then you move on. as > an admin (i've heard, and been told) that learn what > you have to, then you "streamline" that knowledge. > > so when in fact you do get tested by a person for the > job, what if you're a person who knows the information > by sight/practice rather than refrence? > > and about headhunters, i can see why people don't like > them, most come off as smug, and all of them collect > resumes like kids collect pokemon cards........."i > choose you, senior security architect..........with 10 > years SunOS admin experience, and 13 years of apache > knowledge", heh, classic, but necessary. i guess. > > drew dolopo > > --- Eleanor Harris <Eleanor.Harris@EVOLUTION-PLC.COM> > wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Interesting questions and answers flying around; > > tips for candidates > > from an HR recruitment person who comes from a > > 'head-hunter' background > > with technical knowledge also. > > > > 1. Quite right - never lie - especially if you are > > going for a security > > role - it > > will be found out either at interview or if the > > company does > > background > > searches to verify all qualifications / job roles > > and salaries as we > > do. We > > also ask for examples of work which gives you a > > great insight as to > > how > > you code / plan a project etc. If you are going for > > a security role > > and there > > is even a hint of a lie on your CV you are going to > > be binned. > > > > 2. Further yourself as and when you can - either > > through courses or by > > building your own Linux network at home - I have > > given the thumbs up > > to people who have proof and are continuously > > pushing their > > knowledge boundaries > > either in the technical sense of if you work for a > > consultancy in > > the business sense also > > > > 3. If you don't like the way an agency or > > 'head-hunter' is dealing with > > you then > > either go direct or move to another agency. It is > > always better to > > get an agency > > who have been recommended to you. > > > > 4. There are hundreds of ways to get to the end goal > > of getting a top > > job - some > > go through the proper educational channels, some > > have landed on > > their > > feet in other ways but hard work and knowing the > > right people. If > > you are keen, > > enthusiastic, able and hard working that is all an > > employer can > > really ask for. > > > > 5. Have a clear career goal in mind - people like to > > see a bit of drive > > in individuals > > with goals and objectives set that you want to > > achieve. It also give > > the potential > > employer an clear idea as to what you want to do to > > see if they can > > match your > > expectations. > > > > I hope this helps anyone who is looking for a new > > role out there. Please > > feel free to rip > > my comments to shreds!! > > > > Regards, > > > > Eleanor > > > > ===== > "We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees." - Jason Kidd, upon his drafting to the Dallas Mavericks > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com -- "Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people." - George Bernard Shaw
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri Apr 13 2001 - 15:26:38 PDT